Battle area > Community
Double Teaming
Jai Hearts:
@angel
its not that simple, what you implied is basically whats happening and you cant simple call a tb off and solve the problem since it will still have the problem. we cant always just turn away and say "nope we wont do it" since it will be spread around allot of teams and people will just see it as the norm like multi teaming is.
@zane
pro double teaming
you say it isolated most teams and cause conflicts, but i see mutli teaming is such a big conflict this tread was made. does that not imply that multi teaming and double teaming will not cause its conflicts ? in allot of chats i see that the conflict is with 2 teams most of the time, two very big teams even constantly at odds with one another that even the leader left it for a time. and what teams would you call struggling and how many members should double for it ? every all till one team is more active then the other, one again causing one leader to be unhappy and take shots that his members are being taken ? i can see this work out especially with certain people but what is a struggling team ? someone with 20 members and maybe only 5 are active right now ? but they have 20 members does this mean they need your members too ? like droid said allot can be twisted in these rules to suit a team, even divine souls reformed and dissbanded twice if i remember correctly with the second team losing allot of members to teams they where on as a second team. so double teaming wont always help and can infact bring one down.
growing in double: again this was first stated i think by mythos that in double team you grow more and make more friends, but i just proved that it is possible to do this on regular none multi teams. infact it could be proven that you grow more and make more friends on none multi teaming teams since you dont stay in the two teams community or the multi teaming circle. i barely see multi teams take in new people these days with maybe one team taking one every 2 months. so it is possible to grow with both but being on single team allows you to make friends with people learn from em and you feel like you wanna fight em more cuzz you still havent seen all there skills and abilities. so yea it can work with both sides but with single the teams will learn to coopirate and work more together.
toxic:
zane even with multi teaming insolation and narrowmindedness maybe more evidant now as i realise we have gone full circle since pro double teams say this is possible, pro single say it is still possible even without double without the drama of people complaining members are not fighting for em. not to mention again that double/multi teams do not want to recruit new people as we are now a small community and incest among teams will only deteriorate us more. you say single team has these problems but i see that mutli teams are the ones carrying it.
you said you left a team to help another out. you helped started a team no shame in that, and if you left a team why did you ? because the new team is your friend ?
so want your cake and eat it too ?
but youre there own both teams, if youre there but youre on one more then the other, your helping one more trying to be on both sides. its like being with two lovers, man that must be exausting. your main comment says it helps struggling teams but why do they need help so far ? shouldnt that atleast try to look for members ? is the struggling lack of members or lack of strong members ? how much members does a struggling team need to have to be considered struggling ? how many months weeks days does it need to count as struggling ?
it just sounds like you want as many tbs as possible not train make friends or have matches. from all i see mutli teaming only has one upside and thats mutli/double teamers get to tb more. so you cant fight a regular fight ? you cant train with someone ? tb is the must the absolution ? then if tbs all you are after all youre thinking is how many tbs you can get not how you can help a team.
Jai Hearts:
--- Quote from: Hope on April 20, 2016, 08:29:29 AM ---Let me start with the main point, people respond to incentives.
Of course, an outright ban has no incentives for both members and leaders unless they support it. People get nothing from following it, and thus can ignore it completely (Think of the U.S Prohibition Era for those of you who know history). In which case that puts in question how this whole shenanigan will be enforced as mentioned before. Whatever the result here is, there are many other holes in our team battling system such as the lack of any system to mandate honest and consistent reporting, or any central power to organize teams at all. If we are to bring attention to a problem, then we should address the other issues at hand.
It is like beating a dead horse, but the hope that this can give an understanding that an outright ban is too much work, idealistic even. If a ban could fix the problem, then why not fix other problems as well and create the ideal system?
Well, because banning isn't actually a quick fix, and an ideal system is much harder to achieve. People aren't just going to listen to a central power in a small group like this.
Double Teaming is NOT killing the "community," we are pointing our fingers at an issue that would not be a problem should we have a larger player base.
Lets say we have a bag of 5 marbles with 1 red marble inside. The activity is that you pull out a random marble and throw it back in. You are very likely to constantly pull the red marble. That's because there's not that many marbles. Increase the count to 10, now we have 1/10 chances. You're seeing this red marble less. Then you amp it up to 50, then even 100. At this point it reduces itself to a 1/100 chance, only a 1 percent chance to come across this same marble which you constantly crossed before, just because you increased the quantity of the pool.
The best solution to this is not going for a ban that forces people to act. People respond to incentives. Its not a big bang word with blurred lines and meanings like "bonds," and not any sort of vague assumption on why and what we do in teams. We are people, and we have individuality. This is apparent by how everyone brings in personal testimony more than anything else. Its all different, and in no way are any of them wrong. Trying to find a point of convergence and agreement from there just isn't going to happen.
We have to attract new members and encourage new members into entering our team battling scene. Now understand that not everyone is constantly involved in this. We have players who slip in and out, those who only see this as an occasional activity to unwind and play Vanguard. Whatever the case may be, we just need more people.
Think of the movie Cars, with Radiator Springs and how they needed to attract people as they were in danger, literally becoming wiped off the map. The solution there was to make the place more attractive and more welcoming, to open up more.
Give incentives for people and make them want to stay. That way we have a larger environment as a whole. With a growing environment, we can get an exponentially growing community once again as we did before.
...but with a rise comes a fall, and may we rise again as we did before.
Thank you for this post and thank you all as this has awakened a lot of those who have had dormant thoughts and opinions and has given the opportunity for them to be expressed.
An action which brings people here and draws out their passions, is in itself a reason to be here.
--- End quote ---
allow me to speak with the kiddy cloves off
so basically youre against it and you have power so youre losing that means you will shut this down even do there was votes and a majority agreed to ban it. but again you are in favor of it you have power so screw the small guys you win no matter what ?
damn hope this is like the new rep chat rules and no person one can have two team pages again. the people spoke and said they dont want it, in the past for what you guys are pro with you helped and voted and won. but now that this is actually something many are against you just said you wont dare change a thing even if people want to try it, want to see what comes out the other tunnel but you wont dare risk it because its not in your favor.
i have trully small fate in allot of people in the forum because they look out for themselves not the community or the game and even do we spoke and people see that only good thing about double/multi is more tbs nothing else it has more negatives then positives you wanna just ignore it because it doesnt suit you.
well guess thats that boys and girls going back to the original plan.
Hope:
--- Quote from: Hope on April 20, 2016, 08:29:29 AM ---Let me start with the main point, people respond to incentives.
Of course, an outright ban has no incentives for both members and leaders unless they support it. People get nothing from following it, and thus can ignore it completely (Think of the U.S Prohibition Era for those of you who know history). In which case that puts in question how this whole shenanigan will be enforced as mentioned before. Whatever the result here is, there are many other holes in our team battling system such as the lack of any system to mandate honest and consistent reporting, or any central power to organize teams at all. If we are to bring attention to a problem, then we should address the other issues at hand.
It is like beating a dead horse, but the hope that this can give an understanding that an outright ban is too much work, idealistic even. If a ban could fix the problem, then why not fix other problems as well and create the ideal system?
Well, because banning isn't actually a quick fix, and an ideal system is much harder to achieve. People aren't just going to listen to a central power in a small group like this.
Double Teaming is NOT killing the "community," we are pointing our fingers at an issue that would not be a problem should we have a larger player base.
Lets say we have a bag of 5 marbles with 1 red marble inside. The activity is that you pull out a random marble and throw it back in. You are very likely to constantly pull the red marble. That's because there's not that many marbles. Increase the count to 10, now we have 1/10 chances. You're seeing this red marble less. Then you amp it up to 50, then even 100. At this point it reduces itself to a 1/100 chance, only a 1 percent chance to come across this same marble which you constantly crossed before, just because you increased the quantity of the pool.
The best solution to this is not going for a ban that forces people to act. People respond to incentives. Its not a big bang word with blurred lines and meanings like "bonds," and not any sort of vague assumption on why and what we do in teams. We are people, and we have individuality. This is apparent by how everyone brings in personal testimony more than anything else. Its all different, and in no way are any of them wrong. Trying to find a point of convergence and agreement from there just isn't going to happen.
We have to attract new members and encourage new members into entering our team battling scene. Now understand that not everyone is constantly involved in this. We have players who slip in and out, those who only see this as an occasional activity to unwind and play Vanguard. Whatever the case may be, we just need more people.
Think of the movie Cars, with Radiator Springs and how they needed to attract people as they were in danger, literally becoming wiped off the map. The solution there was to make the place more attractive and more welcoming, to open up more.
Give incentives for people and make them want to stay. That way we have a larger environment as a whole. With a growing environment, we can get an exponentially growing community once again as we did before.
...but with a rise comes a fall, and may we rise again as we did before.
Thank you for this post and thank you all as this has awakened a lot of those who have had dormant thoughts and opinions and has given the opportunity for them to be expressed.
An action which brings people here and draws out their passions, is in itself a reason to be here.
--- End quote ---
"so basically youre against it and you have power so youre losing that means you will shut this down even do there was votes and a majority agreed to ban it. but again you are in favor of it you have power so screw the small guys you win no matter what ?
damn hope this is like the new rep chat rules and no person one can have two team pages again. the people spoke and said they dont want it, in the past for what you guys are pro with you helped and voted and won. but now that this is actually something many are against you just said you wont dare change a thing even if people want to try it, want to see what comes out the other tunnel but you wont dare risk it because its not in your favor."
Never in my original post did I mention that I was going to shut down that thread, that I was losing, and that I had the power.
Re-read the whole thing. I don't even use the word "I" or even refer to myself outside of the beginning where "I" say, "let me refer to my main point."
If I wanted to shut this thread down, I would have already done so, I don't know if you notice, I am not a moderator in this section.
The whole point of formal argumentation is to treat the argument as something separate. You don't talk to using first person or even mention yourself outside of maybe some personal testimony, but even then its only brief.
This is just Straw Manning (attacking the arguer directly rather than confronting their argument) and bold assumption of something even I have never thought of. I constructed a good and clear argument using examples, even appreciating this post for existing.
"i have trully small fate in allot of people in the forum because they look out for themselves not the community or the game and even do we spoke and people see that only good thing about double/multi is more tbs nothing else it has more negatives then positives you wanna just ignore it because it doesnt suit you.
well guess thats that boys and girls going back to the original plan."
Same point as before. "suit me?" I never once talked about myself so I don't know where that came from. In terms of you having small faith in a lot of people, that is more personal than anything. I talked about general incentives, which doesn't require faith or belief in individuals, but rather the idea that people respond to positives.
In terms of multi-teaming being for tbs and nothing else.
I indirectly addressed this when I mentioned that many people have been using their personal testimonies. Its more significant that just for "tbs." Other posts have been posted proving that there is more than just this, and I paid homage to them whether they were for or against double teaming as they presented the spectrum of stories and ideas which build up the "community," and which a successful and fun system should have to offer.
Kisaragi Zane:
@zane
pro double teaming
you say it isolated most teams and cause conflicts, but i see mutli teaming is such a big conflict this tread was made. does that not imply that multi teaming and double teaming will not cause its conflicts ? in allot of chats i see that the conflict is with 2 teams most of the time, two very big teams even constantly at odds with one another that even the leader left it for a time. and what teams would you call struggling and how many members should double for it ? every all till one team is more active then the other, one again causing one leader to be unhappy and take shots that his members are being taken ? i can see this work out especially with certain people but what is a struggling team ? someone with 20 members and maybe only 5 are active right now ? but they have 20 members does this mean they need your members too ? like droid said allot can be twisted in these rules to suit a team, even divine souls reformed and dissbanded twice if i remember correctly with the second team losing allot of members to teams they where on as a second team. so double teaming wont always help and can infact bring one down.
Yes, double teaming can have its faults. However, I've seen it help teams that were struggling because they didn't have enough members due to life reasons or inactivity. Lending an extra hand, goes so much further beyond than just team battling: helping players improve, help structure the team, build a foundation. When your work is done, it's your choice whether or not you wish to stay and continue assisting or leave and return to your main team. I stayed on Absolute Empire because I liked the members of the team very much, I didn't have to, but I did. So yes, teams can bond through this. There isn't much of a definition of a struggling team outside of: inactive or new team that just started.
growing in double: again this was first stated i think by mythos that in double team you grow more and make more friends, but i just proved that it is possible to do this on regular none multi teams. infact it could be proven that you grow more and make more friends on none multi teaming teams since you dont stay in the two teams community or the multi teaming circle. i barely see multi teams take in new people these days with maybe one team taking one every 2 months. so it is possible to grow with both but being on single team allows you to make friends with people learn from em and you feel like you wanna fight em more cuzz you still havent seen all there skills and abilities. so yea it can work with both sides but with single the teams will learn to coopirate and work more together.
Again, we're not looking at every aspect: competitive and social benefits. People multi-team for a social benefit, which is perfectly fine however, which I've stated in my very first post: there are many alternatives to this such as skype group chats. If they want to fight alongside them: then they could always sub in every now and again, or just become full fledged members. Whatever their agenda is in terms of the social benefit: it's on them.
toxic:
zane even with multi teaming insolation and narrowmindedness maybe more evidant now as i realise we have gone full circle since pro double teams say this is possible, pro single say it is still possible even without double without the drama of people complaining members are not fighting for em. not to mention again that double/multi teams do not want to recruit new people as we are now a small community and incest among teams will only deteriorate us more. you say single team has these problems but i see that mutli teams are the ones carrying it.
Even with teams having a few double-members: you are still able to open your arms to new members or how people address them as 'randoms' into their team. I occasionally go out of my way to fight people in the main lobby early in the morning and its not bad as people may think it is. Double teaming isn't what's stopping people from recruiting people into the community.
you said you left a team to help another out. you helped started a team no shame in that, and if you left a team why did you ? because the new team is your friend ?
so want your cake and eat it too ?
but youre there own both teams, if youre there but youre on one more then the other, your helping one more trying to be on both sides. its like being with two lovers, man that must be exausting. your main comment says it helps struggling teams but why do they need help so far ? shouldnt that atleast try to look for members ? is the struggling lack of members or lack of strong members ? how much members does a struggling team need to have to be considered struggling ? how many months weeks days does it need to count as struggling ?
it just sounds like you want as many tbs as possible not train make friends or have matches. from all i see mutli teaming only has one upside and thats mutli/double teamers get to tb more. so you cant fight a regular fight ? you cant train with someone ? tb is the must the absolution ? then if tbs all you are after all youre thinking is how many tbs you can get not how you can help a team.
I left the original Neo Genesis to make a team called Blue Sorciere but I wanted to be on both because I like both teams and I wanted to be able to assist both if need be. I was told to make a decision, and I left, again: no regrets. The other members also left their teams so that we could be committed to the new team and that was that. For your information, it had nothing to do with 'strong members' or 'getting the most team battles', I honestly could give two shits about those concepts since I put the team first before myself in any occasion. Same for any other team I'm currently in or was in. I like helping people get better, improve, and learn to have fun with the game so that they aren't salty every loss, bashing and causing trouble with the opposing teams. If I can help multiple team accomplish this, then yes I'll gladly help out any team that asks me if I would like to be a part of their team. I've joined teams where I only knew 1 person and that everyone else was nothing more than complete strangers to me that I didn't particularly care for. Hanging with them and improving together and accomplishing goals together they've become friends, some even closer. So it's really not about "getting the most TBs" or "wanting to be with strong players" or "being with friends" because the first two sound very narrow-minded and very biased while the last one is well... how would I put it? At the end of the day, if you bond with a team, they're going to become your friends regardless anyway.
Jai Hearts:
same as you didnt say i, did i say you ? that was omnidirectional at a whole bunch of people.
many people have pointed it out mutli teaming has just one gain with more tbs for a person on multiple teams and not mutli teaming has ether less or none of the problems and all the positives.
people cant really ignore this since even those with mutli teaming teams are against it but they want this ban to pass because they dont wanna stop it so they dont become enemies with there "friends".
we are a community just because we all dont agree on something doesnt mean we cant try it. we tried so many things that ended with so many drama but this can potentially stop one and help us grow.
sure it wont be easy
sure same as mutli teaming took months to grow single teams will take months to grow.
yes not all new teams will rise and yes those relying on members from other teams will fal.
but we whats the fun in the arguing, the backstabbing, all this negativity just so you can get so many tbs? way so many tbs ? does it improve your life ? do you get paid big for winning ?
will it help the community ? yes
will it fix all problems ? no
do we have to work for it ? yes
will there still be problems dissagreement drama ? hell yes, but atleast this way we got more teams more options because when there is drama lately in one team problems it chains to like 5 different teams.
we get it guys you want your leader power you want your team but whats the point in living in a paper home if youre scared that a breeze will fall it down ?
i know from the start this vote wouldnt effect anything for teams in area because most of the people that can set the rules wont do it since they are pro mutli/double. even do the people that are on here more then them the people that know this community better then the circle in the forum want it to stop want it to improve, it just doesnt suit you, you dont see a problem because you need it so you ignore others that say please please stop.
so your option is ignore it we need it even if it is more cancer then healthy.
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