Double Teaming

[Cipher Izanagi]

While I greatly respect what you just wrote, because you're the only one that's come closest to dissuading any arguments I could of had, there's one issue I have.

"Right now, people have absolutely no reason to believe in their team, bond with their team or do anything of that nature with multi teaming allowed, the team system is not only about team battling 24/7, it also has the meaning of bonding with your fellow members and fighting alongside each other."

In some cases you may very well be correct about this. But I trust each member of my team, be it the ones that are multi teaming or the ones who are solely devoted to HB. I've been a part of more than one team at the same time as well and developed bonds with each member of every team. I fight alongside them, and I personally chose not to fight for either team unless one side didn't have enough due to life issues. So if someone like me, who'd rather just watch everyone burn, can do it everyone can. Next...

"The way i see it, the only ones that benefit from double teaming are TB crazed beasts who don't really care on which team they are in at all, and therefore i consider double teaming to promote selfish behavior in a team setting which is practically unthinkable (and before someone tries to correct me and say that double teaming is promoting team bonds,please stop fooling yourself, teams with no individuality have no reasons or incentives to actually bond with each other)."

Your opinion and stance is respected as I said before. And I understand what you mean. However, the issue about TB crazed beasts doesn't necessarily prove or disprove that multi teaming is cancerous to the community. If anything, it addresses the issue of the players themselves and their habits. Also, since you're going there, you can stop fooling yourself that someone CAN'T prove you wrong. As I mentioned earlier, I had no issues bonding with team mates when I was on multiple teams. And AGAIN, if I can do it, everyone can. The greed part and "tb crazed beast" parts also again, don't do much for your argument other than point out flaws with players themselves rather than the system as a whole.

"My second point has to do with the trouble of some teams getting members and the way the community itself closed its borders to new blood. There are tons of people in the starting area that cardfight each other everyday, and most of them have no idea about the forum or anything team related, but why don't we as a community get them into the forum and teams? Well the answer is simple. It's because we actually choose not to do it, almost every single team classifies those players as "randoms" and never gives them a chance or introduction to the team system. We as a community are small because we are shutting ourselves down, often forgetting that we were once in their shoes as random players on area, playing the game we all know and love."

FINALLY, someone addressed this issue. Yes, the community is small thanks in part to how the community itself treats "randoms". You're not wrong, as we were all "randoms" at one point. Teams looking for new blood could very well look at the starting area and find new members. But that also implies that they WANT to be a part of this community. So it's good that you brought it up as a point, but that's ultimately a failure on this community's part as a whole, myself included.

I'm also going to say this, everyone here that has voted for banning Double Teaming/Multi Teaming has mentioned pretty much the same things constantly, instead of actually mentioning how it could be actually cancerous to the community as a whole. There's always two sides to an argument, and I still want everyone to actually come to a consensus that actually helps everyone, instead of shafting people. You can't enforce this, and if I'm getting annoying with it sorry. Finally got committed to the community and all I've seen is just hate wars, and the like. I want us to come together as a family and not as a bunch of middle school brats.

[shirii]

I honestly can't understand why anyone would be against Double Teaming. Multi Teaming is certainly stupid, but a strict Double Team rule (or perhaps a 1 Main Member / Roster Member 1 Sub kind of deal) can easily fix these issues. Secluding people off from other teams they want to be on with friends for a wide variety of reasons is completely pointless and only further adds stress, anger and annoyance. It does no good; if it does good, it's so minimal it's vastly outweighed. Quite frankly, if your against double teaming as a whole, make that a rule on your team and try to negotiate with both your team and other teams where possible.

It's not that big a deal. The argument of 'bonding with your fellow members' falls rather flat if you ask me. For a time, I was in [Mu's] and ER at the same time. I bonded with both teams and loved my time on them so much, and I'm still on ER thankfully. I wasn't even tb crazed, as many can vouch for, and while I'm trying to make more of an effort in ER quite frankly sometimes the stars don't align; but even then, I wasn't on both teams for the damn teambattles. Sure, they were a part of it. But it was the friendships I made on them, some of which still standing after I'm only on ER, that were why I was on both teams.

I see so many people here asserting their opinions as fact without accepting other views, and if that's the case, there's no point arguing here. I'm not accusing everyone or even naming anyone, so don't consider yourself to BE one of those people; but honestly, with a few stricter regulations that you can enforce RIGHT NOW to your very whims, there's absolutely no harm being done with double teaming. Multi teaming can get a bit out of hand, but with the right reasons, it's fine. Putting a blanket ban over a complex issue solves nothing.

[Pcdroid]

@Cipher
"In some cases you may very well be correct about this. But I trust each member of my team, be it the ones that are multi teaming or the ones who are solely devoted to HB. I've been a part of more than one team at the same time as well and developed bonds with each member of every team. I fight alongside them, and I personally chose not to fight for either team unless one side didn't have enough due to life issues. So if someone like me, who'd rather just watch everyone burn, can do it everyone can."

My argument didnt have to do with whether or not you can do it, it actually had to do with what reasons or incentives you have to do it, with multi teaming allowed teams no longer feel unique and interesting so there isn't any reason for people to try it. TL;DR: You can bond with teams even with multi teaming allowed but you actually don't have any reason to do so.

"Your opinion and stance is respected as I said before. And I understand what you mean. However, the issue about TB crazed beasts doesn't necessarily prove or disprove that multi teaming is cancerous to the community. If anything, it addresses the issue of the players themselves and their habits."

That in itself does give power to my argument for a very simple reason. If a system like double teaming can be exploitable by such players then it is simply not a healthy system to implement into the way the community works. The system hurts the community simply because its exploitable by those players habits. If the system is cannot be exploited as much then its simply a better system to implement (in this case the ban of double teaming)

[Kisaragi Zane]

I'd also like to address that with the banning of double or multi-teaming, yeah team's would have their own individuality with their members. However, there is a good possibility that doing that may be doing more harm than good for the community. As we are now, (as shown in the rep chat, disregarding any trolling or random disputes/shots), we're all pretty familiar with each other to say the least. I can name at least 2-5 friends on 80% (different names mind you) because of how close or familiar we've gotten with each other. There are some teams that I do not know anything about because they're not really involved with the community for whatever their reason is and I do very much wish that this was not the case because I would like more teams within the community. This can lead to major disputes that become more difficult to defuse and later on grudges and bad rumors etc etc. The point I'm trying to make is that, individuality has lead to isolation of teams from the community, some don't mind it, others do. With double teaming, any disputes or miscommunication that are had can be diffused very easily. There were even times that because there was no involvement of the CFA community in one team, that another team was labelled as a 'bad/trouble/drama team' but coming together, we were able to see that wasn't the case. All in all, this is another pro that double teaming has brought towards the community and that by banning it, it can make teams more isolated if they aren't already.

[Jai Hearts]

you know all in all the thing i see the most in people who are pro multi teaming i see they say multi teaming helps give em growand if its taken away it does more harm.

but these are your friends, your people right ? and you guys are already on the same teams this just means you guys will just be on one team and still be able to tb the same amount. for this i see people are scared there "friends" wont join em. ive seen teams who even post in there rules no mutli team make constant exceptions for people who are there "friends". i dont understand why you want someone that brings enough power over you to make em special ?

as for the growing part, one of the things i always advice allot of people is try a new deck outside of tbs first because the way most teams plays team fights are not a place to test a deck since allot of teams only thing winning is fun. being the guy with the longest running team on here i see mostly vets multi team, the people that already grew already had there time. some join teams just to be in the chat to know what happens, so what you want someone on your team to watch you ? i have seen teams, teams like 3soh who barely got time train in there none multi teaming team and grow way to freaking strong. teams like FP who i looked up to because there focus is not tbs, but to improve train with one another communicate help each other. i myself am not in any of the team chats of any team but im rivals with em im friends and im growing with em because we bond we fight we rival we war, allot of these guys i cant say are the same as my team because each people each members is so unique so different that even those that need training we work together to help em we bond and help,

in the past i started thinking all of area is toxic because there wasnt this this bond i get from teams here, but once word kept getting around of my team being mentioned at places so far away from area people contacted me and i found teams that are so strong so amazing and so fun to fight.

bottom line is all these things you say multi team is good for, you dont need it to get em. thats just you saying you are scared your members wont stay with you, and if youre so scared they will leave then why keep em ?

[Pcdroid]

@Angel

"I honestly can't understand why anyone would be against Double Teaming. Multi Teaming is certainly stupid, but a strict Double Team rule (or perhaps a 1 Main Member / Roster Member 1 Sub kind of deal) can easily fix these issues. Secluding people off from other teams they want to be on with friends for a wide variety of reasons is completely pointless and only further adds stress, anger and annoyance. It does no good; if it does good, it's so minimal it's vastly outweighed. Quite frankly, if your against double teaming as a whole, make that a rule on your team and try to negotiate with both your team and other teams where possible."

For one limiting Multi teaming to 2 does not really prevent anyone from exploiting the system it just makes it a tiny bit harder, banning double teaming in general can fix a lot of issues and will restore each teams individual style. As for the secluding people off part, it actually gives players the incentive to actually communicate on area and during team battles to become friends rather than outright joining both teams, you can become friends with people from other teams if you wish to do so and no one said no to that, the issue here is the smooth operation of the team system as a whole which is (at least right now) not entirely functional.

"It's not that big a deal. The argument of 'bonding with your fellow members' falls rather flat if you ask me. For a time, I was in [Mu's] and ER at the same time. I bonded with both teams and loved my time on them so much, and I'm still on ER thankfully. I wasn't even tb crazed, as many can vouch for, and while I'm trying to make more of an effort in ER quite frankly sometimes the stars don't align; but even then, I wasn't on both teams for the damn teambattles. Sure, they were a part of it. But it was the friendships I made on them, some of which still standing after I'm only on ER, that were why I was on both teams."

It is a big deal, and its not only bonding with your fellow members, its bonding as a team, as a unit. Besides that like i stated in the above paragraph as well, you don't necessarily have to be in two teams to make friends with people from other teams, instead of taking the easy route and join two teams people can make an effort and talk to people they want to meet and wanna be friends with rather than: "by being on two teams you can make new friends" it's actually better to think of it like this "do I have to be on two teams at the same time to make new friends?" and on that the answer is definitely no.

"I see so many people here asserting their opinions as fact without accepting other views, and if that's the case, there's no point arguing here. I'm not accusing everyone or even naming anyone, so don't consider yourself to BE one of those people; but honestly, with a few stricter regulations that you can enforce RIGHT NOW to your very whims, there's absolutely no harm being done with double teaming. Multi teaming can get a bit out of hand, but with the right reasons, it's fine. Putting a blanket ban over a complex issue solves nothing."

In my case i did check all other arguments before stating my opinion, I agreed on some of them while disagreeing on others, but i do respect all of the things i read whether i agree with them or not. Also a few stricter regulations will not fix this issue in my opinion at least, because the system will still be able to be exploited anyway in different ways. Also Banning it will bring new players to the community and make it grow, Double teaming is in fact bordering up the community disallowing new blood to come in and reinforce the already bleeding team system. That's why its not healthy for the community as a whole.

[shirii]

I want to post a few suggested changes or rulings to combat this issue without completely putting down a blanket ban that doesn't help anything.

I want to introduce something along the line of subs. Here's how the basics would go, which can be easily tweaked and discussed to allow for more health; for the community as a whole, or for your specific team. It's not like it would be required, but it might be a nice starting point.

Each team can have up to three subs. These three subs will be any players from another - but they can only sub for one team (this could be negotiated to two; either as a wide statement or in specific cases. Talk with the team leaders and come to a mutual understanding and agreement). These subs are honorary members of the team they are subbing for; they have access to the group chat (this addresses the issue of wanting to double team because of friends and such) and are by all means members but they can only tb under specific circumstances.

These circumstances could vary from team to team, but a potential starting point can stem from here.

In the scenario that a main roster team member was to participate in a teambattle, if that member is for whatever reason unable to participate anymore, then a sub can be called in to take this members place. 

This means subs can't just play for another team when they want to play for that team or because they ain't got a tb in their main team, or for whatever reason; as the term 'sub' implies, they're a stand-in.

This isn't a required fix.
This can't be enforced by law.
It doesn't need to happen for your team if you don't want it to.
But if you want a fix for double teaming, a blanket ban will not work.

~~Credit to Lati for helping me discuss this idea.

[Jai Hearts]

I want to post a few suggested changes or rulings to combat this issue without completely putting down a blanket ban that doesn't help anything.

I want to introduce something along the line of subs. Here's how the basics would go, which can be easily tweaked and discussed to allow for more health; for the community as a whole, or for your specific team. It's not like it would be required, but it might be a nice starting point.

Each team can have up to three subs. These three subs will be any players from another - but they can only sub for one team (this could be negotiated to two; either as a wide statement or in specific cases. Talk with the team leaders and come to a mutual understanding and agreement). These subs are honorary members of the team they are subbing for; they have access to the group chat (this addresses the issue of wanting to double team because of friends and such) and are by all means members but they can only tb under specific circumstances.

These circumstances could vary from team to team, but a potential starting point can stem from here.

In the scenario that a main roster team member was to participate in a teambattle, if that member is for whatever reason unable to participate anymore, then a sub can be called in to take this members place. 

This means subs can't just play for another team when they want to play for that team or because they ain't got a tb in their main team, or for whatever reason; as the term 'sub' implies, they're a stand-in.

This isn't a required fix.
This can't be enforced by law.
It doesn't need to happen for your team if you don't want it to.
But if you want a fix for double teaming, a blanket ban will not work.

~~Credit to Lati for helping me discuss this idea.

that just sounds the same as whats happening with subs now, with teammembers complaining that they want to play but there teams rather let the sub do it so there is no way to really stop em or from changing subs for one tb saying this new guy is a sub now but later said or we got our old sub back.

[Pcdroid]

@Angel
"I want to post a few suggested changes or rulings to combat this issue without completely putting down a blanket ban that doesn't help anything.

I want to introduce something along the line of subs. Here's how the basics would go, which can be easily tweaked and discussed to allow for more health; for the community as a whole, or for your specific team. It's not like it would be required, but it might be a nice starting point.

Each team can have up to three subs. These three subs will be any players from another - but they can only sub for one team (this could be negotiated to two; either as a wide statement or in specific cases. Talk with the team leaders and come to a mutual understanding and agreement). These subs are honorary members of the team they are subbing for; they have access to the group chat (this addresses the issue of wanting to double team because of friends and such) and are by all means members but they can only tb under specific circumstances.

These circumstances could vary from team to team, but a potential starting point can stem from here.

In the scenario that a main roster team member was to participate in a teambattle, if that member is for whatever reason unable to participate anymore, then a sub can be called in to take this members place. 

This means subs can't just play for another team when they want to play for that team or because they ain't got a tb in their main team, or for whatever reason; as the term 'sub' implies, they're a stand-in.

This isn't a required fix.
This can't be enforced by law.
It doesn't need to happen for your team if you don't want it to.
But if you want a fix for double teaming, a blanket ban will not work."

What you just described is a mini nerf to multi teaming. It's literally the same thing. Also do you have any idea how much that thing can be exploited? If someone wants to break a team now he can exploit this sub rule and do it easily. As I said before its not an issue just for certain people who wanna be on double teams with friends, this is for the health of the Team system as a whole, you cannot expect a team system like that to survive for too long, and if it does the result will not be good.If people want a team with their friends they can make one in a healthy team system, not double team left and right. At this point in time the ban is the solution. No tweak to the rules can fix the issues at hand.

[Izayanagi]

In this last few posts we can see that the goal of this ordeal was reached. People finally stopped taking shots at each other, and articulate points started being made with the most crucial of all... Solutions(Thanks Angel). It is pretty obvious that at the end of the day, no one can enforce this and it would be a tyrant like thing to do so, which is something we are trying to avoid.

Thank you all who have the mental capacity of your age, and are able to see both sides of the coin without bashing the other. This was a problem that was lingering and recently exploded out of control and the end goal of this specific discussion was to expand your minds and let them realize that this has indeed become an issue that has solutions. In the end various points were um.. lets say... recycled, and many were taken out of context(Like most of you always find a way) but it seems after the trailblazers left we are starting to have productive conversation. Thank you last survivors for being the few out of the over 50 people who read or posted in here looking to do more damage than good.

[shirii]

that just sounds the same as whats happening with subs now, with teammembers complaining that they want to play but there teams rather let the sub do it so there is no way to really stop em or from changing subs for one tb saying this new guy is a sub now but later said or we got our old sub back.

1) The subs can only play in the place of a main roster member who cannot play anymore. The team can't just let the sub play, and if they do, that's both against the suggested rules and a problem with the team itself if you ask me.
2) A sub is an honorary member. It's not as simple as just swapping out any normal member like that, and hopefully it wouldn't be the same. It's just a matter of trusting the other teams to not abuse the system; and if they abuse the system, you can just call off the tb or something along those lines. It's definitely not a perfect system and would need some work.

[Kisaragi Zane]

you know all in all the thing i see the most in people who are pro multi teaming i see they say multi teaming helps give em growand if its taken away it does more harm.

>I'm pro-DOUBLE teaming because in the event that a team needs help or support, you have the option of lending a hand. That's always been my reason for being on an alternate team. My statement about it doing more harm than good is in terms of a team becoming isolated from the community, which has happened before. A team becoming isolated from the community leads to many conflicts instead of melding together as one community as what Mythos said in his previous post. Again, my only reason for being pro-double teaming is that allows the person to lend a hand to a struggling team.


as for the growing part, one of the things i always advice allot of people is try a new deck outside of tbs first because the way most teams plays team fights are not a place to test a deck since allot of teams only thing winning is fun. being the guy with the longest running team on here i see mostly vets multi team, the people that already grew already had there time. some join teams just to be in the chat to know what happens, so what you want someone on your team to watch you ? i have seen teams, teams like 3soh who barely got time train in there none multi teaming team and grow way to freaking strong. teams like FP who i looked up to because there focus is not tbs, but to improve train with one another communicate help each other. i myself am not in any of the team chats of any team but im rivals with em im friends and im growing with em because we bond we fight we rival we war, allot of these guys i cant say are the same as my team because each people each members is so unique so different that even those that need training we work together to help em we bond and help.

>It's also possible to grow and bond through double-teaming. If one team is fully structured and functional and yet another team isn't for whatever reason, you can assist that team, make new friends, rivals, etc etc. I was in the same predicament when I was on Divine Souls and Absolute Empire, I helped out Absolute Empire and and actually grew to like the members that I saw myself as a pillar of the team while all at the same time, I still loved being on Divine Souls and helping/assisting them whenever I could.

in the past i started thinking all of area is toxic because there wasnt this this bond i get from teams here, but once word kept getting around of my team being mentioned at places so far away from area people contacted me and i found teams that are so strong so amazing and so fun to fight.

>If you re-read my previous post, this thought of area being toxic is what I'm trying to prevent. Some teams are very isolated from the community and only see things from a very narrow perspective. If teams who aren't regularly involved with the community become more... involved with the community (assuming they want to.) then thoughts like that wouldn't even occur in the first place, unless you personally have issues against members of the community then I can't help you there.

bottom line is all these things you say multi team is good for, you dont need it to get em. thats just you saying you are scared your members wont stay with you, and if youre so scared they will leave then why keep em ?

>There was another point in time where a team was starting out but because I wasn't able to multi-team I had to leave in order to help out the new team. Again, personally, I believe double teaming should be allowed for an actual legitimate purpose such as (for the thousandth time: helping a struggling team: either via inactivity or just starting out. (which are my only reasons for multi-teaming). I personally believe if I didn't have to make the choice to leave a team to help a team, I'd be a bit happier being able to help both but I made my decision and have no regrets on it. And while I'm pro-double teaming, I do highly agree that it does conflict with the competitive scene because many people do not share my notion of letting other people play before them because they can play on another team, and do try to hog in TBs, yes that is a thing. I really think that double-teaming should be allowed if given a reason, if it's going to be that much of an issue. Again, I only double team to help out struggling teams, and there are others who do it to be with friends, and there is the other group who do it to get in as many team battles as possible. If you can weed out and separate those who actually benefiting more than just themselves from those who honestly just don't give a fuck and want to be loose-cannons, bluntly speaking, I'm sure this issue of double teaming can be minimized without having to ban it, ruining it for those who are actually trying to lend a hand with the teams.

[shirii]

What you just described is a mini nerf to multi teaming. It's literally the same thing. Also do you have any idea how much that thing can be exploited? If someone wants to break a team now he can exploit this sub rule and do it easily. As I said before its not an issue just for certain people who wanna be on double teams with friends, this is for the health of the Team system as a whole, you cannot expect a team system like that to survive for too long, and if it does the result will not be good.If people want a team with their friends they can make one in a healthy team system, not double team left and right. At this point in time the ban is the solution. No tweak to the rules can fix the issues at hand.

This is not the same thing as multi teaming. Let's set some definitions for the terms.

Double Teaming - to be on two teams at once

Multi Teaming - to be on multiple teams at once

This is double teaming, evidenced by my initial suggestion of having one main team and being able to sub for ONE team. You have to be ACCEPTED to be a sub as you would be a member, so someone can't just randomly waltz in with no explanation. If they're someone with malicious intent intending to 'break' a team, I just have a few problems with that.

How on earth is someone going to 'break' a team? Will they get it disqualified? Will they intentionally lose teambattles? Team's can't just magically become void, and if they attempt to intentionally lose teambattles they can easily be removed. You never seemed to elaborate on this point, so I have no idea what you mean by 'breaking' a team.

This isn't the same as multi teaming. A ban is jumping to extremes, and I will repeat this and stress this as MANY times as I am required to.

A simple, blanket "let's just pretend this never happened" ban will NOT fix this double teaming 'issue'.

[Kisaragi Zane]

I think the issues with substitutes is that people ask while setting up a TB for a sub instead of saying "we can't TB today guys, we dont' have enough members". Back in the day (ooooyaaaa hipster lingo), if someone left due to an emergency, we counted that as a loss or we continued playing until someone came back and filled up the spot, that way it was still a team effort. Subs nowadays are very abused to where it's not even a 'team battle'. Just don't team battle the team if 50% of the players are not members on their team. (inb4 they join the team they're playing for as legitimate members thus multi-tea-OOOOOOOO) See how these things come full circle?

[Hope]

Let me start with the main point, people respond to incentives.

Of course, an outright ban has no incentives for both members and leaders unless they support it. People get nothing from following it, and thus can ignore it completely (Think of the U.S Prohibition Era for those of you who know history). In which case that puts in question how this whole shenanigan will be enforced as mentioned before. Whatever the result here is, there are many other holes in our team battling system such as the lack of any system to mandate honest and consistent reporting, or any central power to organize teams at all. If we are to bring attention to a problem, then we should address the other issues at hand.

It is like beating a dead horse, but the hope that this can give an understanding that an outright ban is too much work, idealistic even. If a ban could fix the problem, then why not fix other problems as well and create the ideal system?

Well, because banning isn't actually a quick fix, and an ideal system is much harder to achieve. People aren't just going to listen to a central power in a small group like this.

Double Teaming is NOT killing the "community," we are pointing our fingers at an issue that would not be a problem should we have a larger player base.

Lets say we have a bag of 5 marbles with 1 red marble inside. The activity is that you pull out a random marble and throw it back in. You are very likely to constantly pull the red marble. That's because there's  not that many marbles. Increase the count to 10, now we have 1/10 chances. You're seeing this red marble less. Then you amp it up to 50, then even 100. At this point it reduces itself to a 1/100 chance, only a 1 percent chance to come across this same marble which you constantly crossed before, just because you increased the quantity of the pool.

The best solution to this is not going for a ban that forces people to act. People respond to incentives. Its not a big bang word with blurred lines and meanings like "bonds," and not any sort of vague assumption on why and what we do in teams. We are people, and we have individuality. This is apparent by how everyone brings in personal testimony more than anything else. Its all different, and in no way are any of them wrong. Trying to find a point of convergence and agreement from there just isn't going to happen.

We have to attract new members and encourage new members into entering our team battling scene. Now understand that not everyone is constantly involved in this. We have players who slip in and out, those who only see this as an occasional activity to unwind and play Vanguard. Whatever the case may be, we just need more people.

Think of the movie Cars, with Radiator Springs and how they needed to attract people as they were in danger, literally becoming wiped off the map. The solution there was to make the place more attractive and more welcoming, to open up more.

Give incentives for people and make them want to stay. That way we have a larger environment as a whole. With a growing environment, we can get an exponentially growing community once again as we did before.

...but with a rise comes a fall, and may we rise again as we did before.

Thank you for this post and thank you all as this has awakened a lot of those who have had dormant thoughts and opinions and has given the opportunity for them to be expressed.

An action which brings people here and draws out their passions, is in itself a reason to be here.