Area Forum
Battle area => Community => Topic started by: Sirvat on April 19, 2016, 07:12:57 PM
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As you all know Double Teaming is a common practice on Cardfight Area(CFA) at the moment. Double Teaming is when a player is on more then one team usually two, but that's not the case for CFA as the same people are on 4-5 different teams. There have been many complaints from people who disagree with it, and there have been people who do agree with it. I personally don't agree to it.
I think Double Teaming is one of the reasons why team battles aren't as diverse and fun as they use to be. Every team has the same players instead of actually looking for new players who are actually interested in the game and learning to play. In my opinion Double Teaming really kills the point of even having a team. How can you be competitive if the same people are on different teams or in another team just under a different name. How can you show your team is one of the best? Double Teaming is even stopping some people from joining teams.
I was thinking that we as community/team leader can come together to limit the amount of Double Teaming, or just get rid of it. As stated this is my personal opinion. Don't you guys think it will be funnier if there wasn't as much Double Teaming? We could even have a team ranking system in which teams get sleeve prizes at the end of the month for being number 1. Thoughts?
No shade No shade -I love you Nicki-
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I find it sad that this Multi teaming thing has gotten out of control like it did. We gotten complacent in our own little community and stopped recruiting people with talent, and would rather be on 3 teams with the same 5 or 6 people. Not only has this killed any sort of competitive spirit that was around at a certain point, but like sirvat said, it just killed the whole point of teams or fighting as a team. We are at a point where we have 5 or 6 teams with the same core members and another few with some other core members. At this point there is only about 4 real teams in cfa and the others are just pure copies/regroups/branches with only 1 or 2 members being swapped. We should put an end t this or try to do damage control as much as we can, as fast as we can.
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I agree with the whole "Double Teaming is when a player is on more then one team usually two, but that's not the case for CFA as the same people are on 4-5 different teams. There have been many complaints from people who disagree with it, and there have been people who do agree with it. I personally don't agree to it. "
4-5 is too much and 1-2 at most seems fair and stops the confusion and keeps TB's easier to have since not everyone is on every team xD
"I was thinking that we as community/team leader can come together to limit the amount of Double Teaming, or just get rid of it. As stated this is my personal opinion. Don't you guys think it will be funnier if there wasn't as much Double Teaming? We could even have a team ranking system in which teams get sleeve prizes at the end of the month for being number 1. Thoughts?"
Thoughts = We could even have a team ranking system in which teams get sleeve prizes at the end of the month for being number 1.
Totally wanna do this ^ lel
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Double teaming defeats the purpose of teams in the first place. I see no problem with being a last effort to make a TB to have a team you sub for, but DTing is extremely inconvenient for teams with the same members.
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I mean, literally when you're on a team, you all train together and try to be the objectively best team in whatever you're doing. If everyone has the same members, what is the point?
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I don’t see any problem with double teaming, the community is small, if it isn’t really hurting anyone or causing any problem (which by 'my' knowledge) which it hasn’t, there shouldn’t be problem, again the community is small double teaming isn’t that big of a deal, if your team doesn’t want to double team don’t do it, but you shouldn’t have to limit or ban other teams from doing it.
Side Note
I didn’t read any posts b4 i posted this one.
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Double Teaming (Keyword: Double, not multi, multiple, whatever have you. Double.) is honestly fine, if the person doing the Double Teaming isn't wise about it and only does it for the sake of it rather than having a normal goal then why ban it over a black sheep? Same applies to leaders that turn their teams into carbon copies of other teams.
There are far more pluses to Double Teaming than there are minuses. Sure, you start fighting the same people over and over but the amount of active teams isn't all that great anyways so you'll end up fighting the same people at one point or another. One shouldn't double team just to get double the Team Battles or because they got bored of one team (in which case why not just quit the team) and then focus the majority of your attention on only one team. If someone's going to double team they should do it for sake of being part of a bigger group of people to hang out with (or in this case, two different groups), or having an active group of friends at all times during their up hours, or just trying to help a team out by giving them more than 3 members, for example.
What you do is make sure that there aren't more than 3 people double teaming from the same team in your team, and prevent people from joining 3-5 teams at once, and then everything is fine, teams aren't here just to be Team Battle Machines and fighting the same people is unavoidable, this community's member count isn't all that high, people go inactive due to reasons and teams die eventually just like everything sooner or later. Why contain a person inside a single group if they can join another and have fun there too? Subs are a thing, multiaccounting is a thing, you'd have to stop that too and considering the amount of members that aren't anywhere on the forum i dont think the later is going to be that easy.
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The sad part is, while double teaming is destroying the community, a majority of players are doing it. I think it needs to stop for the good of us all, even them. They don't realize how it's effecting the community in a negative manner.
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I feel as though double teaming should be allowed. Running my teams as long as i have i never closed out the options for my team members to gain knowledge and gain multiple experiences through different outlets. i feel double teaming allows my members to understand other peoples view points and give them bigger voices in their community so that it can form an even greater community. At the end of the day it is just a game (and people act like its a life or death ordeal) and in my opinion people should not be restricted to just having to be on one team. This game is to get connected with multiple people around the world and to gain different experiences,not just stick to your clique.
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This isn't anything new. Complaining about people double teaming or multi teaming while in reality it's up to the teams themselves whether they allow their members to multi team or double team or not. If it's an issue, instead of putting a community wide ban on it, and trying to enforce it... When it's ALREADY ingrained into the system, do you guys REALLY believe that'd work? To top it off, let me again say, as a team you can just decide NOT to allow your members to multi team etc.
Personally, going back even to CFC, I was brought into the Vanguard community with the idea that multi teaming was okay because it allowed more avenues for growth, more ways to actually bond and make friends, so that's why I'm okay with keeping it. Though sure, 4-5 teams is a bit. . . Much, trying to force a community to follow your rules after it's been going on for so long could have some major draw backs, especially if you try to limit it so much.
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Yes...stop it so we dont see the same people on every team...in every tb
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I repeat myself, Double Teaming is fine, MULTI Teaming is a thing that got so out of control it's ridiculous. 60% of the players are on 70% of the teams. This took all of the benefit of team battling, learning from a team and all the benefits of double teaming and threw them out the window then hit em with their car.
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I do not agree with double or multi teaming but i do understand our community isnt that big right now and sometimes its hard to find a tb but srsly like the other guy said its the same people in every TB nearly
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truth i say yes lets stop it could turkey, as the guy with the oldest team on area i saw allot of times rise and fall because of multi teaming.
right now i see allot of names say it should stay but those exact names complain that they lack members and that other teams are using "there" members to much.
in the past this act was looked down on, but as some people leave the next set decided to do it so they can always have a team they control and those that failed to keep there teams alive decided to do it so they dont disband but in the end the teams just sometimes like as of late end up being literal clones of another team just with a different and someone else set as leader.
i say if we want to see this community grow if we genuinly want to see this community alive again, we stop the multi teaming and recruit brand new people and get em to training. i know this is hard but its how my team started and again oldest team in area now, never needed to disband or reform constantly active.
the option of limiting it is good too but what is the limit ? 2, 3, 50 ? whats the point of limiting if in the end we will be seeing a tb where 1 person needs to fight for both sides ?
so yea thats my taughts on it as the guy helping teams and leader of the longest running one.
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And I'll repeat myself as many times as I need. Regulation is fine, but being a dictator is not. This is supposed to be a community, not a dictatorship. I agree with someone being on 5+ teams is frigging ridiculous, but forcing people to choose between just one or two, may very well cause issues. Another matter to look at is subbing as well since if you're going to start bringing double/multi teaming up as an issue, then subbing should be looked at as well. There's also the fact that it's already past the point of fixing it with no draw backs.
Bringing up the issue of the same people in nearly every TB, from what I've seen it's always the same teams so that's a rather moot point to bring up. Then again, I have my own things to worry about other than always staring at each and every TB day in and day out.
Stopping it again, let me reiterate, may cause issues with certain members with friends in multiple teams who they wish to stay with. If people are going to complain about not having members as well, limiting this altogether could very well cause teams to lose members completely, and die out because of an issue that could of been solved far earlier than now.
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@Cipher Izanagi
As stated I personally don't agree with double teaming at all but I do think us team leaders should at least limit it to 2. I'm also not trying to enforce it, I was just stating my opinion, and wanted to here other thoughts. You can also just make a group chat if you wanna be with all your friends. Jai has also helped many new and upcoming teams find members if you think teams dying out will be a problem. I'm sure a lot other leaders wouldn't mind helping also.
@Tsuna and @Cipher Izanagi
Yes I do agree double teaming allows for growth, more ways to bond, make friends, and gain knowledge etc but it also has many negative effects. After I posted this topic multiple people have personal message me stating that double teaming has killed the community a bit, and even destroyed some of there teams because of there members being tired out from playing on another team. In some cases they even like one team better then the other and just leave the other team thus damaging/eventually destroying that team.
As Jai stated we should recruit new players, and increase the number of people in our community. Believe it or not most people dont even know about the fourm. If Ren had not recruited me from the spawn area when I was a complete noob I would have never knew the form existed.
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I don't have an issue with double teaming although I only find it acceptable if said team is inactive or is just starting out, in the event you'd like to lend a hand or your support to the team(s). I totally respect that and have done so myself numerous times in the past and has lead to successful decisions. Joining a team that's been around for months for no reason other than 'nothing else better to do' is what's killing the team system, competitively, in my personal opinion. As others have said below, being on 2 times or multiple for other non-competitive reasons like being with friends and such is fine if that's your agenda (though I'm sure that's what skype and group chats are for if you wanna hang out with people, if you wanna team battle with them then I'm sure you can sub in a TB every now and again -inb4 subbing is another issue that is going to be addressed-).
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Also i don’t think 'that' many people are even double teaming, and i agree with cipher if you don’t want your team to double team, don’t allow it, if you don’t want to fight teams who double team, don’t fight teams who double team. It isn’t fair for ALL teams to be restricted of it when some teams are ok with it, I don’t double team but I don’t see why other people shouldn't. The community is kind of just find the way it is. I’m not trying to tb the same 3-4 teams because double teaming is no longer allowed the community is already dying as it is.
Though I dont think it would be a problem if it was limited to 2.
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mythos on the subbing thing it is basically the same since you see someone fight everyday for a team are in the team chat sometimes set tbs for em but some people deny it which basically means subbing should stop since a team is a unit of people, you dont see sports teams share members do you ?
and mythos even now with mutli team they are complaining allot that they lack members so in the end this wont change a thing since allot of those members will still be on the same teams with there clones just dissbanded.
with all do respect considering your team needs multi team to survive i can see why you are fighting for it since you dont have allot of time for area but what is better ?
a team of people that are loyal and there for you ?
or people that go left and right and when you feel you wanna fight with em they dont feel like playing for your side ?
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@Sirvat
And I completely respect your stance on it. I'm not here to bash anyone for what they believe, just to point out certain issues I see with what could happen if people decide to actually go through with this. I've heard a massive amount of rather... unpleasant things, about this community over all and have observed some of the same, to the point it makes the League of Legends community or the Call of Duty community seem like the Care Bears. I don't want that, and I really don't want a massive issue to come up altogether because community members deem what is collectively decided as their fate to be utter crap. I'm also completely in agreeance with limiting the number of teams a single person can be on. But to just one or two seems a bit... eh? It'd also be hard to actively enforce getting rid of double/multi teaming as well.
Also making a group chat on skype/discord with your friends is completely fine. Something I agree with, but it doesn't hold the same thing as being on a team with your friends. Like I said, I just don't want this to downspiral and cause so many more issues than it helps the overall community. I'm a part of this community so I do want to help out.
@Jai
I'm not fighting to keep it, I'm stating my opinions on it, and stating facts and draw backs to help you guys actually decide. Sure I don't actually care if members of my team are on others, but in the end I leave it up to them who they fight for, as well as whether or not they stay. So I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to actively make me seem like the black sheep here.
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I don't think that Double Teaming should be banned, but maybe a limitation might be good for it. Even if a person is on 2-3 teams, all of those teams wont be active 24/7. There are teams who are only active on weekends because people have school, work and other things to tend too. Also Double teaming does have its benefits like people have said above, you get that different point of view in cardfighting and most of the time you learn something new that helps you improve.
In terms of people saying "Im seeing the same people in each TB" is reason being that the same teams are always active 24/7 and those said people always sub for every TB before the TB has even begun. But subbing is a subject for another day.
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@Aeon
That's not really a point of teams in my honest opinion. That's something I also didn't understand. A w/l record. Cute. That's all that seems to matter from what you just pointed out, and even if you're using an example, you're singling someone out. While you're not wrong, does the point of someone winning or losing actually matter that much in this discussion? I thought this was an issue about teams complaining about the same people over and over in team battles, not someone's win/loss record. Not trying to be a jerk, I'm just saying.
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@ myth not what im doing but there is a difference with people who spend allot of time on area and people who dont.
mutli teaming is the easy choice for many but also the most destructive since all mutli teaming teams end up ether disbaning or take long pauses while most members fight for another team in the meanwhile.
it wouldnt be bad if it was limited between maybe two partner teams but even so i doubt if we vote on no it will stop and if we vote on limited people will just change the rules to suit em.
every team on here except fp and mine constantly keeps looking for new members keeps complaining with lack of members. only difference would be if mutli teaming stops they will all me on one team and we will have new people on area.
two teams i respect so much for standing on there own to recruit and grow are pss and ds the later of who just started and in on week recruited almost 10 members out of the blue who they are now training and growing into awesome and creative figters.
honestly i can say all the bad facts of mutli teaming but even the people on about 5 teams are complaining of lack of tbs lack of people constantly but are still voting pro. so the question is are we gonna just keep it like this or we gonna stand strand and just fill this place up with noobs and be entertained ?
choice is yours: continue the way we are, or try something crazy ?
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Thank you Sirvat.
Well ended up misclicking my vote. Oh well. Thank you Sirvat.
I agree double teaming should just end and would greatly fix a ton of problems and issues.
But I think it should be taken even further.
For one if this does happen I think team wins/loses etc records and tournament records should reset to a clean state. Especially since we are very close to entering a brand new format of the game.
Also and I don't think everyone will agree with this but I think the amount of players on each team should be limited too. Because this will makes more teams which will make more team battles possible which could make team tournaments more possible. I think the Max number of players per team should be a number around 6-12 players. I say 6-12 for max in the off chance you need to have players sub and for huge team battles because those can get fun.
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No, you missed the point. It wasted Zan's time. He wasn't fighting for anything but for the fact both sides needed someone.
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@Aeon
My apologies, the way it was worded I misinterpreted what you intended to say.
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Hey NP. I am just kind of set in my old ways, we didn't multi team years ago, or rather, like Jai said, it was looked down upon.
Double/multi teaming takes away team spirit and the intimacy of team bonding and team battles.
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@Magus and @Jai
I fully agree, and I would also like to implement the team ranking system, but I don't think there would any point with all this double teaming around.
Also yes DS leader did a very good Job, he was fighting different people 24/7 looking for members, and introducing them to the forum.
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No, you missed the point. It wasted Zan's time. He wasn't fighting for anything but for the fact both sides needed someone.
I guess since is being brought up..., this would be a great example why double teaming is good. To be honest, it didn't waste my time, but being able to fight both teams and to help/give feedback to a team is one of the pros of it. Was it an inconvience? Maybe, (to me it wasn't because again, I didn't mind, it was fun.) but gotta learn to take lemons and make lemonade, yeah? Plus I know both teams love me.
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I actually wouldn't say that. Back on CFC I was part of one of the largest teams, if not THE largest team, Divine Souls, and it was due in part to the idea of giving people a place to go for a start... and if they wanted to stay or go somewhere else they could. That resulted in Divine Souls's stand point of multi teaming being rather lax, allowing it. But we also had many people bond to others in the team and the team as a whole. It felt like a family, even with the members being on multiple teams.
I also want to state again, how would we even enforce this?
I also again want to reiterate that it's the team's policies that are at fault for any of this. The Team Leaders. And no, I'm not going to say I'm any better or worse. In fact, I've allowed multi teaming for multi members of my team to allow them to actually work with their friends.
Another thing I want to ask that's off topic, more it was mentioned in TSS's post, why put an emphasis on a team's win/loss record? What's the point of that? To see who's better? Team separation? To try and lure in more members if your win record is high?
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No, you missed the point. It wasted Zan's time. He wasn't fighting for anything but for the fact both sides needed someone.
I guess since is being brought up..., this would be a great example why double teaming is good. To be honest, it didn't waste my time, but being able to fight both teams and to help/give feedback to a team is one of the pros of it. Was it an inconvience? Maybe, (to me it wasn't because again, I didn't mind, it was fun.) but gotta learn to take lemons and make lemonade, yeah? Plus I know both teams love me.
wouldnt this time be better spend training less strong members or recruiting new people. teams arnt here for 24/7 tbs. you can do so much more then just tbing 24/7. even now my team has an event so we arnt just focused on this one act.
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I mean, and have you SEEN the spawn area? All those blank slates just waiting to be trained? IMAGINE THE TEAMS WE COULD HAVE. We could have such numerous and good teams and regular tournaments with that many members of the community.
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@Aeon
You're not wrong, but we have to keep in mind. There are people who'd rather not be a part of a team, or even the community in general. I mean, even I actively avoided the community at the start.
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Yeah, but there's also people that don't know there is a community of teams. Most of them are at a weak level and use outdated decks, but we can fix that.
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And honestly, Vanguard was not fun for me until I started CFing in a team. It was a lot smaller of a community back then, but none the less, it was very fun. We actually TB'd DS a few times, good times I gotta say. Of course, not many would remember the short lived Chrono's Gate.
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That's actually a reason I say they want NOTHING to do with it.
"weak level"
I don't like seeing that thrown around at all. I'd rather keep player rankings out of the community, and I just... feel like that's a big issue. Calling someone weak isn't a good way to get them to join the community. What if they're new? Do we call them weak and act like an elitist? We were all new at one point. What's the point of putting others down, when we ourselves were like that at one point?
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For me weak level isn't saying they're bad, it's that they're... ignorant. Ignorant meaning they haven't had the chance to learn better options and better strategies.
This sounds pretty bad, doesn't it?
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honestly anyone can win with a meta deck just need a bit of luck thats all, so no to rankings.
but this is about the community not who is strong and weak, imagine a bussiness whos workers dont work for em or someone else work. no bussiness keeps noe contracted workers for long and those who do can fall so easly.
there are even teams that let people fight now instead of there own members that are on one team because if the elitist mentality but these people are again on another team. i say whats the point of having a team if not all members are allowed to play but those that play in 20 tbs for 20 different teams can ?
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Little bit. But I get what you mean. I just... don't want that all thrown around, y'know?
Also pushing it back up since I legitimately want to see how someone intends to enforce this if we go about it:
How do we do it and get each team to agree to it. How to we change the formula and rules for something that's been ingrained in this community for it's entire life, even if it's been looked down on.
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No, you missed the point. It wasted Zan's time. He wasn't fighting for anything but for the fact both sides needed someone.
I guess since is being brought up..., this would be a great example why double teaming is good. To be honest, it didn't waste my time, but being able to fight both teams and to help/give feedback to a team is one of the pros of it. Was it an inconvience? Maybe, (to me it wasn't because again, I didn't mind, it was fun.) but gotta learn to take lemons and make lemonade, yeah? Plus I know both teams love me.
wouldnt this time be better spend training less strong members or recruiting new people. teams arnt here for 24/7 tbs. you can do so much more then just tbing 24/7. even now my team has an event so we arnt just focused on this one act.
The situation was moreso that, I was asked to play on the opposite side after playing for one side. It wasn't me being a TB-fiend. In fact, in other teams that I'm on, I don't play too much because I'd rather have others play before me since I have the mentality of "I can always play on Team A, I'll let people on Team B play". The only times that I do play is when asked, lack of members, or if I really want to. Most of the time, I am asked, not saying I am lazy: I honestly just prefer others getting their tbing needs out of the way first.
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Basically get all leaders to agree and only teams that don't allow double teaming should fight other teams that don't allow it. enn just throwing that out there
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@Sirvat
I see what you're going for. You're the first one I've seen attempt to address this issue, but that wouldn't work. But that doesn't address the leaders agreeing, and that also would cause more issues in the community.
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honestly myth ofcourse i already know mutliple teams that will still break it even if official and mods that will literally change the rules to stay in the right
honestly i doubt anything will change because most people in this community have one thing in mind, to win. with the mentality that they should have everything control everything and everyone and if they are caught in the wrong they ether become hypocrits or say the rules dont apply to em so i doubt much will change and while some people want to stop mutli teaming they just dont want to be the ones to give up there members or power even do it really is pretty much nothing since they bend the rules to keep those they wanna keep, ironically giving others more power over them then themselves.
wow ok that was deep.
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Like Mythos Said, Us being former DS members we can understand why Double teaming is not an issue... We were given the wings to fly and freedom to use them, but even so I never did once multi team even when I had friends on other teams. The one time I was on another team I left DS for the time being then shortly returned. The point is, if something here was lost was just your sense of loyalty. This is a game have some fun worry less about who you fight and worry more about why you fight.
NEVER AGAIN BOTHER ME FOR SUCH TRIVIALITIES
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well asaka dont know how youre back here but community has changed allot that now basically most tbs are TA vs TA on here. it is about having fun but whats fun about basically fighting the same people over and over, same decks they use again and again ?
in the past it was double teaming one person on maybe 2 teams, but now its mutli teaming someone fighting for about 5 different teams some as stated earlier fighting for both sides in the same tb denying others the chance to fight because they dont want to lose.
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well asaka dont know how youre back here but community has changed allot that now basically most tbs are TA vs TA on here. it is about having fun but whats fun about basically fighting the same people over and over, same decks they use again and again ?
in the past it was double teaming one person on maybe 2 teams, but now its mutli teaming someone fighting for about 5 different teams some as stated earlier fighting for both sides in the same tb denying others the chance to fight because they dont want to lose.
How about you do me a favor and leave my team out of this. k thanks
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Well, no offense, but he has a point.... @Ren. TA is basically fighting TA in a majority of the TBs going on because your members are on other teams. It's like the majority of teams are just sub-teams of TA.
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ren this is about all our teams yours was just a honest fact not a shot.
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It was just an example, and may as well be possible/true given the situation/necessity for this topic.
Anyhow, I'm not even that active (anymore), nor am I that invested into the community at the moment, but here's my take on it (if it's even going to be considered): If you limit it or ban multi-teaming, how will you enforce it? If you're going to limit it, (given the small community), wouldn't it be the same as not changing anything at all? As Aeon mentioned, there are players not assimilated into the community which would help bring more players and more variety (not counting those that might not be interested, but they have every reason to not join if no one's proactive or if they feel intimidated to pop the question). Everyone was new, sometimes even old players go out and back in. You may as well try recruiting more.
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ren this is about all our teams yours was just a honest fact not a shot.
Then word it differently instead of putting it like that... Because if you're gonna make it look like it's my team or my fault for this I could just disband for all I care
But anyway, next time word it in a way that doesn't look as if you're firing a shot.
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Seems like the optimal solution would be to have someone/group of people who introduce people to the forum. Weather they care about teams or not. Bc personnaly it took me 2 weeks of being a random b4 i found the forum. And the only reason i looked for it was to find out how to get more sleeves.
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That is the problem, people got tired of recruiting and would rather have people who are in 3 or 4 other teams. The only team I seen recruit randoms as of now has been RT. Most of us were randoms at some point, why do we ignore that and try to enclose our community. ''This community is small'' Is it? I see hundreds of people in the Forest at cfa everyday. If leaders make some rounds like they used too and fought a few people they see on cfa a few times and bother to extend an invitation to those who are active, solves pretty much all the issues. Remember, we weren't always good at vg. You don't need the best players you just need the active ones.
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That is the problem, people got tired of recruiting and would rather have people who are in 3 or 4 other teams. The only team I seen recruit randoms as of now has been RT. Most of us were randoms at some point, why do we ignore that and try to enclose our community. ''This community is small'' Is it? I see hundreds of people in the Forest at cfa everyday. If leaders make some rounds like they used too and fought a few people they see on cfa a few times and bother to extend an invitation to those who are active, solves pretty much all the issues. Remember, we weren't always good at vg. You don't need the best players you just need the active ones.
u see 100s of people in forest everyday.... I find that very.. very.. hard to believe, just saying >.<
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That is the problem, people got tired of recruiting and would rather have people who are in 3 or 4 other teams. The only team I seen recruit randoms as of now has been RT. Most of us were randoms at some point, why do we ignore that and try to enclose our community. ''This community is small'' Is it? I see hundreds of people in the Forest at cfa everyday. If leaders make some rounds like they used too and fought a few people they see on cfa a few times and bother to extend an invitation to those who are active, solves pretty much all the issues. Remember, we weren't always good at vg. You don't need the best players you just need the active ones.
There is some risk in this, at least, when it comes to making a stable team. It depends on the make-up of the team that leader wishes to have. Outside of that, there is at all no problem with this. It comes down to the leader's preference.
Of course, if given the chance, I personally wouldn't mind doing such things (though, this would involve a separate team).
If any other leaders wish to join me or any prospective team leaders or just anyone who is interested would like to join in on extending a hand out to those in the main areas, that would be great. Maybe we can get something going. Increasing the player base here would more or less naturally increase diversity.
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That is the problem, people got tired of recruiting and would rather have people who are in 3 or 4 other teams. The only team I seen recruit randoms as of now has been RT. Most of us were randoms at some point, why do we ignore that and try to enclose our community. ''This community is small'' Is it? I see hundreds of people in the Forest at cfa everyday. If leaders make some rounds like they used too and fought a few people they see on cfa a few times and bother to extend an invitation to those who are active, solves pretty much all the issues. Remember, we weren't always good at vg. You don't need the best players you just need the active ones.
This.
Limit multi-teaming to 2. Promote leaders to go out and look for fresh blood rather than taking "veterans". Increase the pool of players. This brings back actual team identity and increases the variety of opponents to rotate from. As minor side benefit, you'll see some deck diversity too if that's a concern with more people potentially playing more clans.
Side Note: If reformation and order is the goal at the moment, look into dishonest TB reporting. (Not reporting losses... etc) Ruins the point of ever posting in the first place. Make it mandatory for teams to post at the same time a few minutes post TB. This shouldn't take long. Shoddy posts take 2 minutes of work, not 2 hours. If you can afford to take the time to TB, you have time to do a 2 minute post. There's at least 3 of you to do it. Both sides will confirm the post afterwards for the other side. Maybe put the current team section of the forum into a legacy sections and remake a section and threads for all the active teams and start at ground zero.
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When I joined to community, I thought automatically double teaming was banned. Well, I guess I was wrong because different teams, same names out there. To be honest, I think the current system is pretty dumb with allowing even 4-5 teams for one player. The current situation feels like we have Team Asteroid, Team Asteroid, Radiant Tales, Team Asteroid, Mu's, Team Asteroid, some unknown team and Team Asteroid. So, basically no matter what you do, in current situation you'll play the same people. Personally I think it's very boring and tbh kills my eagerness for playing any tbs. Whatever we do, we still most likely are playing basically against same team, just change the name and leader. As Sirvat said, basically the best way to enforce it is isolation. Teams banning double team should play only against teams banning it too. It consumes some time to actually check that but to change the community there is no other way. To change, most community must agree. I know few people are doubling because the other team is very inactive or because they wanna help friends, which I personally think is okay but... The main problem are the people abusing it. Well, if they don't abuse that directly they sub. Which is one epitome of problem. We literally see the same faces in all tb, wanted or not if the other party don't disagree subbing.
Side Note: If reformation and order is the goal at the moment, look into dishonest TB reporting. (Not reporting losses... etc) Ruins the point of ever posting in the first place. Make it mandatory for teams to post at the same time a few minutes post TB. This shouldn't take long. Shoddy posts take 2 minutes of work, not 2 hours. If you can afford to take the time to TB, you have time to do a 2 minute post. There's at least 3 of you to do it. Both sides will confirm the post afterwards for the other side. Maybe put the current team section of the forum into a legacy sections and remake a section and threads for all the active teams and start at ground zero.
I think in first hand, the problem is you can't prove if you have played or not. Yes, the reporting only victories in first hand is very dishonest, but basically it's impossible to enforce because it's not even currently required regarding the rules. It never has said you have to do any tb reporting. Everyone is doing it just for fun, at least I guess it's the main reason. Anyway, we are not currently giving any awards for success so any team has no other reason to lie but their own pride. Disrespectful against the other teams but what you really can do? Basically nothing as long as rules don't change.
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That's again in part to the teams themselves. If this was an issue to begin with, why not fix it then before it "gets out of hand". We were aware of the multi teaming etc. I'd rather have everyone be happy, than to alienate others just because they didn't agree with me or follow what I wanted done.
I also keep seeing the same thing over and over again: "Same faces in each tb". That's not actually a fault of the multi teaming issue, it just "helps" your case against multi teaming, because it's convenient. What that is, is the actually active teams and members always after team battles. That's not an issue of people on multiple teams, that's people's lives. People not complaining about having enough members isn't a direct result of multi teaming either. It's a result of life.
And for those of you who are going to attempt to call me out for defending this, saying it's because my team allows multi teaming and that's the only reason it survives I'll ask you to re count the numbers. The majority of my team is on just Heavens Breaker. And not once have I complained about members or activity, because I understand life happens. Several of my members go to school, or have jobs. Cardfight Vanguard, this community shouldn't be the focus of our lives. More a project on the side of like minded individuals with the same love for a game that's supposed to be about fun and enjoyment with friends. So when this gets brought up as an issue and everyone suddenly adamantly decides they want to remove it, just because Sirvat decided to finally mention the issue, remember that. Remember that people have lives, so some of these points become rather invalid.
That being said, I also want to point out a few more things. If this goes through, have fun enforcing it. Some of the teams can just outright refuse to do so, and I'm going to be honest. With how I've gone about Vanguard, from the day I've started, I will refuse it. There's no lying about it, so hate me if you want, talk about me behind my back if you want. I'm at least putting it out there that doing this is going to have vastly negative consequences, because even if the majority votes against it, it's evident there are indeed others who agree with keeping double/multi teaming. Isolating and alienating teams just because they don't conform to what you want isn't the right way to go about this. We're supposed to be a community right? I keep seeing that word thrown around here, so I'd assume that's what everyone wants. A community is in my opinion supposed to be like a really big family. Instead of petitioning against this, work something out. Don't force something upon others that radically changes things for them.
Here's another thing I don't understand either. If the team leaders are so upset about their members multi teaming, why not just remove them from your team if you're that bothered about it? Change your rules, whatever. It's not that hard to really do or think about since in the end the team leader decides what happens. Am I wrong?
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Double Teaming is not that bad especially since the community is small and teams can't find members, from the other side it kind of mess things in both teams when a tb is happening and it can give trouble to the people who are doing it.
Personal opinion is that double teaming should be allowed but no more than an one extra team but I believe that the only people that can ban double teaming or multi teaming are the leaders of each team
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I've read everything on this post so far, and to be perfectly honest I can see why some people are not against double teaming.That said however I am personally against it and in favor of banning it and I'm about to explain the reason why.
First of all double teaming destroys any sense of individuality a team has, I really don't know how some people consider themselves to have a team when more than half of the members are on other teams as well, as it stands we are just team battling the same people over and over again without any variety from teams (with some exceptions). Right now, people have absolutely no reason to believe in their team, bond with their team or do anything of that nature with multi teaming allowed, the team system is not only about team battling 24/7, it also has the meaning of bonding with your fellow members and fighting alongside each other. The way i see it, the only ones that benefit from double teaming are TB crazed beasts who don't really care on which team they are in at all, and therefore i consider double teaming to promote selfish behavior in a team setting which is practically unthinkable (and before someone tries to correct me and say that double teaming is promoting team bonds,please stop fooling yourself, teams with no individuality have no reasons or incentives to actually bond with each other).
My second point has to do with the trouble of some teams getting members and the way the community itself closed its borders to new blood. There are tons of people in the starting area that cardfight each other everyday, and most of them have no idea about the forum or anything team related, but why don't we as a community get them into the forum and teams? Well the answer is simple. It's because we actually choose not to do it, almost every single team classifies those players as "randoms" and never gives them a chance or introduction to the team system. We as a community are small because we are shutting ourselves down, often forgetting that we were once in their shoes as random players on area, playing the game we all know and love. Teams that are struggling to find members are simply not trying hard enough, they aren't even trying to reach out to people in the starting area, fight them, and try to recruit them in their team, instead they are trying to find members on the forums where almost everyone has a team going for him, often resulting into the double teaming we know today.
Right now we as a community are treating teams like toys to tb with, and that's not how a team system works, we need to fix this before the area team system dies out. So for the reasons stated above, I support the banning of double teaming.
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I've read everything on this post so far, and to be perfectly honest I can see why some people are not against double teaming.That said however I am personally against it and in favor of banning it and I'm about to explain the reason why.
First of all double teaming destroys any sense of individuality a team has, I really don't know how some people consider themselves to have a team when more than half of the members are on other teams as well, as it stands we are just team battling the same people over and over again without any variety from teams (with some exceptions). Right now, people have absolutely no reason to believe in their team, bond with their team or do anything of that nature with multi teaming allowed, the team system is not only about team battling 24/7, it also has the meaning of bonding with your fellow members and fighting alongside each other. The way i see it, the only ones that benefit from double teaming are TB crazed beasts who don't really care on which team they are in at all, and therefore i consider double teaming to promote selfish behavior in a team setting which is practically unthinkable (and before someone tries to correct me and say that double teaming is promoting team bonds,please stop fooling yourself, teams with no individuality have no reasons or incentives to actually bond with each other).
I think you should understand that the original purpose of double teaming was to help assist teams that are struggling with inactivity or just starting out. It only really got out of hand because of the individual people who are on multiple teams who play in every single TB instead of potentially sitting out. I myself am on, 3 teams (4 if you count Sea Biscuits thank you Scyl >.>) not because I want to TB as much as I can, but for various different reasons. Night Raid is my main team for the most part, my other two teams Heaven's Breaker and Team Asteroid, I assist and support whenever I can or whenever I'm asked of to. I love being on all three of them and it does give me a sense of satisfaction be alongside friends and helping other teams. Does that mean I'm going to be on 4-5 other teams? No. Does this make me TB crazed? No, as I said in my last post? I only TB for my other teams if asked or lack of members because my mentality is that I can always TB whenever I want for NR but I'd rather let other people who aren't around as often or that do want to TB (that are on one team, whatever situation they are) play first. I think you should really consider the reasons why someone would want to multi-team, because it's not just for TB crazed.
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While I greatly respect what you just wrote, because you're the only one that's come closest to dissuading any arguments I could of had, there's one issue I have.
"Right now, people have absolutely no reason to believe in their team, bond with their team or do anything of that nature with multi teaming allowed, the team system is not only about team battling 24/7, it also has the meaning of bonding with your fellow members and fighting alongside each other."
In some cases you may very well be correct about this. But I trust each member of my team, be it the ones that are multi teaming or the ones who are solely devoted to HB. I've been a part of more than one team at the same time as well and developed bonds with each member of every team. I fight alongside them, and I personally chose not to fight for either team unless one side didn't have enough due to life issues. So if someone like me, who'd rather just watch everyone burn, can do it everyone can. Next...
"The way i see it, the only ones that benefit from double teaming are TB crazed beasts who don't really care on which team they are in at all, and therefore i consider double teaming to promote selfish behavior in a team setting which is practically unthinkable (and before someone tries to correct me and say that double teaming is promoting team bonds,please stop fooling yourself, teams with no individuality have no reasons or incentives to actually bond with each other)."
Your opinion and stance is respected as I said before. And I understand what you mean. However, the issue about TB crazed beasts doesn't necessarily prove or disprove that multi teaming is cancerous to the community. If anything, it addresses the issue of the players themselves and their habits. Also, since you're going there, you can stop fooling yourself that someone CAN'T prove you wrong. As I mentioned earlier, I had no issues bonding with team mates when I was on multiple teams. And AGAIN, if I can do it, everyone can. The greed part and "tb crazed beast" parts also again, don't do much for your argument other than point out flaws with players themselves rather than the system as a whole.
"My second point has to do with the trouble of some teams getting members and the way the community itself closed its borders to new blood. There are tons of people in the starting area that cardfight each other everyday, and most of them have no idea about the forum or anything team related, but why don't we as a community get them into the forum and teams? Well the answer is simple. It's because we actually choose not to do it, almost every single team classifies those players as "randoms" and never gives them a chance or introduction to the team system. We as a community are small because we are shutting ourselves down, often forgetting that we were once in their shoes as random players on area, playing the game we all know and love."
FINALLY, someone addressed this issue. Yes, the community is small thanks in part to how the community itself treats "randoms". You're not wrong, as we were all "randoms" at one point. Teams looking for new blood could very well look at the starting area and find new members. But that also implies that they WANT to be a part of this community. So it's good that you brought it up as a point, but that's ultimately a failure on this community's part as a whole, myself included.
I'm also going to say this, everyone here that has voted for banning Double Teaming/Multi Teaming has mentioned pretty much the same things constantly, instead of actually mentioning how it could be actually cancerous to the community as a whole. There's always two sides to an argument, and I still want everyone to actually come to a consensus that actually helps everyone, instead of shafting people. You can't enforce this, and if I'm getting annoying with it sorry. Finally got committed to the community and all I've seen is just hate wars, and the like. I want us to come together as a family and not as a bunch of middle school brats.
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I honestly can't understand why anyone would be against Double Teaming. Multi Teaming is certainly stupid, but a strict Double Team rule (or perhaps a 1 Main Member / Roster Member 1 Sub kind of deal) can easily fix these issues. Secluding people off from other teams they want to be on with friends for a wide variety of reasons is completely pointless and only further adds stress, anger and annoyance. It does no good; if it does good, it's so minimal it's vastly outweighed. Quite frankly, if your against double teaming as a whole, make that a rule on your team and try to negotiate with both your team and other teams where possible.
It's not that big a deal. The argument of 'bonding with your fellow members' falls rather flat if you ask me. For a time, I was in [Mu's] and ER at the same time. I bonded with both teams and loved my time on them so much, and I'm still on ER thankfully. I wasn't even tb crazed, as many can vouch for, and while I'm trying to make more of an effort in ER quite frankly sometimes the stars don't align; but even then, I wasn't on both teams for the damn teambattles. Sure, they were a part of it. But it was the friendships I made on them, some of which still standing after I'm only on ER, that were why I was on both teams.
I see so many people here asserting their opinions as fact without accepting other views, and if that's the case, there's no point arguing here. I'm not accusing everyone or even naming anyone, so don't consider yourself to BE one of those people; but honestly, with a few stricter regulations that you can enforce RIGHT NOW to your very whims, there's absolutely no harm being done with double teaming. Multi teaming can get a bit out of hand, but with the right reasons, it's fine. Putting a blanket ban over a complex issue solves nothing.
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@Cipher
"In some cases you may very well be correct about this. But I trust each member of my team, be it the ones that are multi teaming or the ones who are solely devoted to HB. I've been a part of more than one team at the same time as well and developed bonds with each member of every team. I fight alongside them, and I personally chose not to fight for either team unless one side didn't have enough due to life issues. So if someone like me, who'd rather just watch everyone burn, can do it everyone can."
My argument didnt have to do with whether or not you can do it, it actually had to do with what reasons or incentives you have to do it, with multi teaming allowed teams no longer feel unique and interesting so there isn't any reason for people to try it. TL;DR: You can bond with teams even with multi teaming allowed but you actually don't have any reason to do so.
"Your opinion and stance is respected as I said before. And I understand what you mean. However, the issue about TB crazed beasts doesn't necessarily prove or disprove that multi teaming is cancerous to the community. If anything, it addresses the issue of the players themselves and their habits."
That in itself does give power to my argument for a very simple reason. If a system like double teaming can be exploitable by such players then it is simply not a healthy system to implement into the way the community works. The system hurts the community simply because its exploitable by those players habits. If the system is cannot be exploited as much then its simply a better system to implement (in this case the ban of double teaming)
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I'd also like to address that with the banning of double or multi-teaming, yeah team's would have their own individuality with their members. However, there is a good possibility that doing that may be doing more harm than good for the community. As we are now, (as shown in the rep chat, disregarding any trolling or random disputes/shots), we're all pretty familiar with each other to say the least. I can name at least 2-5 friends on 80% (different names mind you) because of how close or familiar we've gotten with each other. There are some teams that I do not know anything about because they're not really involved with the community for whatever their reason is and I do very much wish that this was not the case because I would like more teams within the community. This can lead to major disputes that become more difficult to defuse and later on grudges and bad rumors etc etc. The point I'm trying to make is that, individuality has lead to isolation of teams from the community, some don't mind it, others do. With double teaming, any disputes or miscommunication that are had can be diffused very easily. There were even times that because there was no involvement of the CFA community in one team, that another team was labelled as a 'bad/trouble/drama team' but coming together, we were able to see that wasn't the case. All in all, this is another pro that double teaming has brought towards the community and that by banning it, it can make teams more isolated if they aren't already.
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you know all in all the thing i see the most in people who are pro multi teaming i see they say multi teaming helps give em growand if its taken away it does more harm.
but these are your friends, your people right ? and you guys are already on the same teams this just means you guys will just be on one team and still be able to tb the same amount. for this i see people are scared there "friends" wont join em. ive seen teams who even post in there rules no mutli team make constant exceptions for people who are there "friends". i dont understand why you want someone that brings enough power over you to make em special ?
as for the growing part, one of the things i always advice allot of people is try a new deck outside of tbs first because the way most teams plays team fights are not a place to test a deck since allot of teams only thing winning is fun. being the guy with the longest running team on here i see mostly vets multi team, the people that already grew already had there time. some join teams just to be in the chat to know what happens, so what you want someone on your team to watch you ? i have seen teams, teams like 3soh who barely got time train in there none multi teaming team and grow way to freaking strong. teams like FP who i looked up to because there focus is not tbs, but to improve train with one another communicate help each other. i myself am not in any of the team chats of any team but im rivals with em im friends and im growing with em because we bond we fight we rival we war, allot of these guys i cant say are the same as my team because each people each members is so unique so different that even those that need training we work together to help em we bond and help,
in the past i started thinking all of area is toxic because there wasnt this this bond i get from teams here, but once word kept getting around of my team being mentioned at places so far away from area people contacted me and i found teams that are so strong so amazing and so fun to fight.
bottom line is all these things you say multi team is good for, you dont need it to get em. thats just you saying you are scared your members wont stay with you, and if youre so scared they will leave then why keep em ?
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@Angel
"I honestly can't understand why anyone would be against Double Teaming. Multi Teaming is certainly stupid, but a strict Double Team rule (or perhaps a 1 Main Member / Roster Member 1 Sub kind of deal) can easily fix these issues. Secluding people off from other teams they want to be on with friends for a wide variety of reasons is completely pointless and only further adds stress, anger and annoyance. It does no good; if it does good, it's so minimal it's vastly outweighed. Quite frankly, if your against double teaming as a whole, make that a rule on your team and try to negotiate with both your team and other teams where possible."
For one limiting Multi teaming to 2 does not really prevent anyone from exploiting the system it just makes it a tiny bit harder, banning double teaming in general can fix a lot of issues and will restore each teams individual style. As for the secluding people off part, it actually gives players the incentive to actually communicate on area and during team battles to become friends rather than outright joining both teams, you can become friends with people from other teams if you wish to do so and no one said no to that, the issue here is the smooth operation of the team system as a whole which is (at least right now) not entirely functional.
"It's not that big a deal. The argument of 'bonding with your fellow members' falls rather flat if you ask me. For a time, I was in [Mu's] and ER at the same time. I bonded with both teams and loved my time on them so much, and I'm still on ER thankfully. I wasn't even tb crazed, as many can vouch for, and while I'm trying to make more of an effort in ER quite frankly sometimes the stars don't align; but even then, I wasn't on both teams for the damn teambattles. Sure, they were a part of it. But it was the friendships I made on them, some of which still standing after I'm only on ER, that were why I was on both teams."
It is a big deal, and its not only bonding with your fellow members, its bonding as a team, as a unit. Besides that like i stated in the above paragraph as well, you don't necessarily have to be in two teams to make friends with people from other teams, instead of taking the easy route and join two teams people can make an effort and talk to people they want to meet and wanna be friends with rather than: "by being on two teams you can make new friends" it's actually better to think of it like this "do I have to be on two teams at the same time to make new friends?" and on that the answer is definitely no.
"I see so many people here asserting their opinions as fact without accepting other views, and if that's the case, there's no point arguing here. I'm not accusing everyone or even naming anyone, so don't consider yourself to BE one of those people; but honestly, with a few stricter regulations that you can enforce RIGHT NOW to your very whims, there's absolutely no harm being done with double teaming. Multi teaming can get a bit out of hand, but with the right reasons, it's fine. Putting a blanket ban over a complex issue solves nothing."
In my case i did check all other arguments before stating my opinion, I agreed on some of them while disagreeing on others, but i do respect all of the things i read whether i agree with them or not. Also a few stricter regulations will not fix this issue in my opinion at least, because the system will still be able to be exploited anyway in different ways. Also Banning it will bring new players to the community and make it grow, Double teaming is in fact bordering up the community disallowing new blood to come in and reinforce the already bleeding team system. That's why its not healthy for the community as a whole.
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I want to post a few suggested changes or rulings to combat this issue without completely putting down a blanket ban that doesn't help anything.
I want to introduce something along the line of subs. Here's how the basics would go, which can be easily tweaked and discussed to allow for more health; for the community as a whole, or for your specific team. It's not like it would be required, but it might be a nice starting point.
Each team can have up to three subs. These three subs will be any players from another - but they can only sub for one team (this could be negotiated to two; either as a wide statement or in specific cases. Talk with the team leaders and come to a mutual understanding and agreement). These subs are honorary members of the team they are subbing for; they have access to the group chat (this addresses the issue of wanting to double team because of friends and such) and are by all means members but they can only tb under specific circumstances.
These circumstances could vary from team to team, but a potential starting point can stem from here.
In the scenario that a main roster team member was to participate in a teambattle, if that member is for whatever reason unable to participate anymore, then a sub can be called in to take this members place.
This means subs can't just play for another team when they want to play for that team or because they ain't got a tb in their main team, or for whatever reason; as the term 'sub' implies, they're a stand-in.
This isn't a required fix.
This can't be enforced by law.
It doesn't need to happen for your team if you don't want it to.
But if you want a fix for double teaming, a blanket ban will not work.
~~Credit to Lati for helping me discuss this idea.
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I want to post a few suggested changes or rulings to combat this issue without completely putting down a blanket ban that doesn't help anything.
I want to introduce something along the line of subs. Here's how the basics would go, which can be easily tweaked and discussed to allow for more health; for the community as a whole, or for your specific team. It's not like it would be required, but it might be a nice starting point.
Each team can have up to three subs. These three subs will be any players from another - but they can only sub for one team (this could be negotiated to two; either as a wide statement or in specific cases. Talk with the team leaders and come to a mutual understanding and agreement). These subs are honorary members of the team they are subbing for; they have access to the group chat (this addresses the issue of wanting to double team because of friends and such) and are by all means members but they can only tb under specific circumstances.
These circumstances could vary from team to team, but a potential starting point can stem from here.
In the scenario that a main roster team member was to participate in a teambattle, if that member is for whatever reason unable to participate anymore, then a sub can be called in to take this members place.
This means subs can't just play for another team when they want to play for that team or because they ain't got a tb in their main team, or for whatever reason; as the term 'sub' implies, they're a stand-in.
This isn't a required fix.
This can't be enforced by law.
It doesn't need to happen for your team if you don't want it to.
But if you want a fix for double teaming, a blanket ban will not work.
~~Credit to Lati for helping me discuss this idea.
that just sounds the same as whats happening with subs now, with teammembers complaining that they want to play but there teams rather let the sub do it so there is no way to really stop em or from changing subs for one tb saying this new guy is a sub now but later said or we got our old sub back.
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@Angel
"I want to post a few suggested changes or rulings to combat this issue without completely putting down a blanket ban that doesn't help anything.
I want to introduce something along the line of subs. Here's how the basics would go, which can be easily tweaked and discussed to allow for more health; for the community as a whole, or for your specific team. It's not like it would be required, but it might be a nice starting point.
Each team can have up to three subs. These three subs will be any players from another - but they can only sub for one team (this could be negotiated to two; either as a wide statement or in specific cases. Talk with the team leaders and come to a mutual understanding and agreement). These subs are honorary members of the team they are subbing for; they have access to the group chat (this addresses the issue of wanting to double team because of friends and such) and are by all means members but they can only tb under specific circumstances.
These circumstances could vary from team to team, but a potential starting point can stem from here.
In the scenario that a main roster team member was to participate in a teambattle, if that member is for whatever reason unable to participate anymore, then a sub can be called in to take this members place.
This means subs can't just play for another team when they want to play for that team or because they ain't got a tb in their main team, or for whatever reason; as the term 'sub' implies, they're a stand-in.
This isn't a required fix.
This can't be enforced by law.
It doesn't need to happen for your team if you don't want it to.
But if you want a fix for double teaming, a blanket ban will not work."
What you just described is a mini nerf to multi teaming. It's literally the same thing. Also do you have any idea how much that thing can be exploited? If someone wants to break a team now he can exploit this sub rule and do it easily. As I said before its not an issue just for certain people who wanna be on double teams with friends, this is for the health of the Team system as a whole, you cannot expect a team system like that to survive for too long, and if it does the result will not be good.If people want a team with their friends they can make one in a healthy team system, not double team left and right. At this point in time the ban is the solution. No tweak to the rules can fix the issues at hand.
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In this last few posts we can see that the goal of this ordeal was reached. People finally stopped taking shots at each other, and articulate points started being made with the most crucial of all... Solutions(Thanks Angel). It is pretty obvious that at the end of the day, no one can enforce this and it would be a tyrant like thing to do so, which is something we are trying to avoid.
Thank you all who have the mental capacity of your age, and are able to see both sides of the coin without bashing the other. This was a problem that was lingering and recently exploded out of control and the end goal of this specific discussion was to expand your minds and let them realize that this has indeed become an issue that has solutions. In the end various points were um.. lets say... recycled, and many were taken out of context(Like most of you always find a way) but it seems after the trailblazers left we are starting to have productive conversation. Thank you last survivors for being the few out of the over 50 people who read or posted in here looking to do more damage than good.
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that just sounds the same as whats happening with subs now, with teammembers complaining that they want to play but there teams rather let the sub do it so there is no way to really stop em or from changing subs for one tb saying this new guy is a sub now but later said or we got our old sub back.
1) The subs can only play in the place of a main roster member who cannot play anymore. The team can't just let the sub play, and if they do, that's both against the suggested rules and a problem with the team itself if you ask me.
2) A sub is an honorary member. It's not as simple as just swapping out any normal member like that, and hopefully it wouldn't be the same. It's just a matter of trusting the other teams to not abuse the system; and if they abuse the system, you can just call off the tb or something along those lines. It's definitely not a perfect system and would need some work.
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you know all in all the thing i see the most in people who are pro multi teaming i see they say multi teaming helps give em growand if its taken away it does more harm.
>I'm pro-DOUBLE teaming because in the event that a team needs help or support, you have the option of lending a hand. That's always been my reason for being on an alternate team. My statement about it doing more harm than good is in terms of a team becoming isolated from the community, which has happened before. A team becoming isolated from the community leads to many conflicts instead of melding together as one community as what Mythos said in his previous post. Again, my only reason for being pro-double teaming is that allows the person to lend a hand to a struggling team.
as for the growing part, one of the things i always advice allot of people is try a new deck outside of tbs first because the way most teams plays team fights are not a place to test a deck since allot of teams only thing winning is fun. being the guy with the longest running team on here i see mostly vets multi team, the people that already grew already had there time. some join teams just to be in the chat to know what happens, so what you want someone on your team to watch you ? i have seen teams, teams like 3soh who barely got time train in there none multi teaming team and grow way to freaking strong. teams like FP who i looked up to because there focus is not tbs, but to improve train with one another communicate help each other. i myself am not in any of the team chats of any team but im rivals with em im friends and im growing with em because we bond we fight we rival we war, allot of these guys i cant say are the same as my team because each people each members is so unique so different that even those that need training we work together to help em we bond and help.
>It's also possible to grow and bond through double-teaming. If one team is fully structured and functional and yet another team isn't for whatever reason, you can assist that team, make new friends, rivals, etc etc. I was in the same predicament when I was on Divine Souls and Absolute Empire, I helped out Absolute Empire and and actually grew to like the members that I saw myself as a pillar of the team while all at the same time, I still loved being on Divine Souls and helping/assisting them whenever I could.
in the past i started thinking all of area is toxic because there wasnt this this bond i get from teams here, but once word kept getting around of my team being mentioned at places so far away from area people contacted me and i found teams that are so strong so amazing and so fun to fight.
>If you re-read my previous post, this thought of area being toxic is what I'm trying to prevent. Some teams are very isolated from the community and only see things from a very narrow perspective. If teams who aren't regularly involved with the community become more... involved with the community (assuming they want to.) then thoughts like that wouldn't even occur in the first place, unless you personally have issues against members of the community then I can't help you there.
bottom line is all these things you say multi team is good for, you dont need it to get em. thats just you saying you are scared your members wont stay with you, and if youre so scared they will leave then why keep em ?
>There was another point in time where a team was starting out but because I wasn't able to multi-team I had to leave in order to help out the new team. Again, personally, I believe double teaming should be allowed for an actual legitimate purpose such as (for the thousandth time: helping a struggling team: either via inactivity or just starting out. (which are my only reasons for multi-teaming). I personally believe if I didn't have to make the choice to leave a team to help a team, I'd be a bit happier being able to help both but I made my decision and have no regrets on it. And while I'm pro-double teaming, I do highly agree that it does conflict with the competitive scene because many people do not share my notion of letting other people play before them because they can play on another team, and do try to hog in TBs, yes that is a thing. I really think that double-teaming should be allowed if given a reason, if it's going to be that much of an issue. Again, I only double team to help out struggling teams, and there are others who do it to be with friends, and there is the other group who do it to get in as many team battles as possible. If you can weed out and separate those who actually benefiting more than just themselves from those who honestly just don't give a fuck and want to be loose-cannons, bluntly speaking, I'm sure this issue of double teaming can be minimized without having to ban it, ruining it for those who are actually trying to lend a hand with the teams.
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What you just described is a mini nerf to multi teaming. It's literally the same thing. Also do you have any idea how much that thing can be exploited? If someone wants to break a team now he can exploit this sub rule and do it easily. As I said before its not an issue just for certain people who wanna be on double teams with friends, this is for the health of the Team system as a whole, you cannot expect a team system like that to survive for too long, and if it does the result will not be good.If people want a team with their friends they can make one in a healthy team system, not double team left and right. At this point in time the ban is the solution. No tweak to the rules can fix the issues at hand.
This is not the same thing as multi teaming. Let's set some definitions for the terms.
Double Teaming - to be on two teams at once
Multi Teaming - to be on multiple teams at once
This is double teaming, evidenced by my initial suggestion of having one main team and being able to sub for ONE team. You have to be ACCEPTED to be a sub as you would be a member, so someone can't just randomly waltz in with no explanation. If they're someone with malicious intent intending to 'break' a team, I just have a few problems with that.
How on earth is someone going to 'break' a team? Will they get it disqualified? Will they intentionally lose teambattles? Team's can't just magically become void, and if they attempt to intentionally lose teambattles they can easily be removed. You never seemed to elaborate on this point, so I have no idea what you mean by 'breaking' a team.
This isn't the same as multi teaming. A ban is jumping to extremes, and I will repeat this and stress this as MANY times as I am required to.
A simple, blanket "let's just pretend this never happened" ban will NOT fix this double teaming 'issue'.
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I think the issues with substitutes is that people ask while setting up a TB for a sub instead of saying "we can't TB today guys, we dont' have enough members". Back in the day (ooooyaaaa hipster lingo), if someone left due to an emergency, we counted that as a loss or we continued playing until someone came back and filled up the spot, that way it was still a team effort. Subs nowadays are very abused to where it's not even a 'team battle'. Just don't team battle the team if 50% of the players are not members on their team. (inb4 they join the team they're playing for as legitimate members thus multi-tea-OOOOOOOO) See how these things come full circle?
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Let me start with the main point, people respond to incentives.
Of course, an outright ban has no incentives for both members and leaders unless they support it. People get nothing from following it, and thus can ignore it completely (Think of the U.S Prohibition Era for those of you who know history). In which case that puts in question how this whole shenanigan will be enforced as mentioned before. Whatever the result here is, there are many other holes in our team battling system such as the lack of any system to mandate honest and consistent reporting, or any central power to organize teams at all. If we are to bring attention to a problem, then we should address the other issues at hand.
It is like beating a dead horse, but the hope that this can give an understanding that an outright ban is too much work, idealistic even. If a ban could fix the problem, then why not fix other problems as well and create the ideal system?
Well, because banning isn't actually a quick fix, and an ideal system is much harder to achieve. People aren't just going to listen to a central power in a small group like this.
Double Teaming is NOT killing the "community," we are pointing our fingers at an issue that would not be a problem should we have a larger player base.
Lets say we have a bag of 5 marbles with 1 red marble inside. The activity is that you pull out a random marble and throw it back in. You are very likely to constantly pull the red marble. That's because there's not that many marbles. Increase the count to 10, now we have 1/10 chances. You're seeing this red marble less. Then you amp it up to 50, then even 100. At this point it reduces itself to a 1/100 chance, only a 1 percent chance to come across this same marble which you constantly crossed before, just because you increased the quantity of the pool.
The best solution to this is not going for a ban that forces people to act. People respond to incentives. Its not a big bang word with blurred lines and meanings like "bonds," and not any sort of vague assumption on why and what we do in teams. We are people, and we have individuality. This is apparent by how everyone brings in personal testimony more than anything else. Its all different, and in no way are any of them wrong. Trying to find a point of convergence and agreement from there just isn't going to happen.
We have to attract new members and encourage new members into entering our team battling scene. Now understand that not everyone is constantly involved in this. We have players who slip in and out, those who only see this as an occasional activity to unwind and play Vanguard. Whatever the case may be, we just need more people.
Think of the movie Cars, with Radiator Springs and how they needed to attract people as they were in danger, literally becoming wiped off the map. The solution there was to make the place more attractive and more welcoming, to open up more.
Give incentives for people and make them want to stay. That way we have a larger environment as a whole. With a growing environment, we can get an exponentially growing community once again as we did before.
...but with a rise comes a fall, and may we rise again as we did before.
Thank you for this post and thank you all as this has awakened a lot of those who have had dormant thoughts and opinions and has given the opportunity for them to be expressed.
An action which brings people here and draws out their passions, is in itself a reason to be here.
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@angel
its not that simple, what you implied is basically whats happening and you cant simple call a tb off and solve the problem since it will still have the problem. we cant always just turn away and say "nope we wont do it" since it will be spread around allot of teams and people will just see it as the norm like multi teaming is.
@zane
pro double teaming
you say it isolated most teams and cause conflicts, but i see mutli teaming is such a big conflict this tread was made. does that not imply that multi teaming and double teaming will not cause its conflicts ? in allot of chats i see that the conflict is with 2 teams most of the time, two very big teams even constantly at odds with one another that even the leader left it for a time. and what teams would you call struggling and how many members should double for it ? every all till one team is more active then the other, one again causing one leader to be unhappy and take shots that his members are being taken ? i can see this work out especially with certain people but what is a struggling team ? someone with 20 members and maybe only 5 are active right now ? but they have 20 members does this mean they need your members too ? like droid said allot can be twisted in these rules to suit a team, even divine souls reformed and dissbanded twice if i remember correctly with the second team losing allot of members to teams they where on as a second team. so double teaming wont always help and can infact bring one down.
growing in double: again this was first stated i think by mythos that in double team you grow more and make more friends, but i just proved that it is possible to do this on regular none multi teams. infact it could be proven that you grow more and make more friends on none multi teaming teams since you dont stay in the two teams community or the multi teaming circle. i barely see multi teams take in new people these days with maybe one team taking one every 2 months. so it is possible to grow with both but being on single team allows you to make friends with people learn from em and you feel like you wanna fight em more cuzz you still havent seen all there skills and abilities. so yea it can work with both sides but with single the teams will learn to coopirate and work more together.
toxic:
zane even with multi teaming insolation and narrowmindedness maybe more evidant now as i realise we have gone full circle since pro double teams say this is possible, pro single say it is still possible even without double without the drama of people complaining members are not fighting for em. not to mention again that double/multi teams do not want to recruit new people as we are now a small community and incest among teams will only deteriorate us more. you say single team has these problems but i see that mutli teams are the ones carrying it.
you said you left a team to help another out. you helped started a team no shame in that, and if you left a team why did you ? because the new team is your friend ?
so want your cake and eat it too ?
but youre there own both teams, if youre there but youre on one more then the other, your helping one more trying to be on both sides. its like being with two lovers, man that must be exausting. your main comment says it helps struggling teams but why do they need help so far ? shouldnt that atleast try to look for members ? is the struggling lack of members or lack of strong members ? how much members does a struggling team need to have to be considered struggling ? how many months weeks days does it need to count as struggling ?
it just sounds like you want as many tbs as possible not train make friends or have matches. from all i see mutli teaming only has one upside and thats mutli/double teamers get to tb more. so you cant fight a regular fight ? you cant train with someone ? tb is the must the absolution ? then if tbs all you are after all youre thinking is how many tbs you can get not how you can help a team.
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Let me start with the main point, people respond to incentives.
Of course, an outright ban has no incentives for both members and leaders unless they support it. People get nothing from following it, and thus can ignore it completely (Think of the U.S Prohibition Era for those of you who know history). In which case that puts in question how this whole shenanigan will be enforced as mentioned before. Whatever the result here is, there are many other holes in our team battling system such as the lack of any system to mandate honest and consistent reporting, or any central power to organize teams at all. If we are to bring attention to a problem, then we should address the other issues at hand.
It is like beating a dead horse, but the hope that this can give an understanding that an outright ban is too much work, idealistic even. If a ban could fix the problem, then why not fix other problems as well and create the ideal system?
Well, because banning isn't actually a quick fix, and an ideal system is much harder to achieve. People aren't just going to listen to a central power in a small group like this.
Double Teaming is NOT killing the "community," we are pointing our fingers at an issue that would not be a problem should we have a larger player base.
Lets say we have a bag of 5 marbles with 1 red marble inside. The activity is that you pull out a random marble and throw it back in. You are very likely to constantly pull the red marble. That's because there's not that many marbles. Increase the count to 10, now we have 1/10 chances. You're seeing this red marble less. Then you amp it up to 50, then even 100. At this point it reduces itself to a 1/100 chance, only a 1 percent chance to come across this same marble which you constantly crossed before, just because you increased the quantity of the pool.
The best solution to this is not going for a ban that forces people to act. People respond to incentives. Its not a big bang word with blurred lines and meanings like "bonds," and not any sort of vague assumption on why and what we do in teams. We are people, and we have individuality. This is apparent by how everyone brings in personal testimony more than anything else. Its all different, and in no way are any of them wrong. Trying to find a point of convergence and agreement from there just isn't going to happen.
We have to attract new members and encourage new members into entering our team battling scene. Now understand that not everyone is constantly involved in this. We have players who slip in and out, those who only see this as an occasional activity to unwind and play Vanguard. Whatever the case may be, we just need more people.
Think of the movie Cars, with Radiator Springs and how they needed to attract people as they were in danger, literally becoming wiped off the map. The solution there was to make the place more attractive and more welcoming, to open up more.
Give incentives for people and make them want to stay. That way we have a larger environment as a whole. With a growing environment, we can get an exponentially growing community once again as we did before.
...but with a rise comes a fall, and may we rise again as we did before.
Thank you for this post and thank you all as this has awakened a lot of those who have had dormant thoughts and opinions and has given the opportunity for them to be expressed.
An action which brings people here and draws out their passions, is in itself a reason to be here.
allow me to speak with the kiddy cloves off
so basically youre against it and you have power so youre losing that means you will shut this down even do there was votes and a majority agreed to ban it. but again you are in favor of it you have power so screw the small guys you win no matter what ?
damn hope this is like the new rep chat rules and no person one can have two team pages again. the people spoke and said they dont want it, in the past for what you guys are pro with you helped and voted and won. but now that this is actually something many are against you just said you wont dare change a thing even if people want to try it, want to see what comes out the other tunnel but you wont dare risk it because its not in your favor.
i have trully small fate in allot of people in the forum because they look out for themselves not the community or the game and even do we spoke and people see that only good thing about double/multi is more tbs nothing else it has more negatives then positives you wanna just ignore it because it doesnt suit you.
well guess thats that boys and girls going back to the original plan.
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Let me start with the main point, people respond to incentives.
Of course, an outright ban has no incentives for both members and leaders unless they support it. People get nothing from following it, and thus can ignore it completely (Think of the U.S Prohibition Era for those of you who know history). In which case that puts in question how this whole shenanigan will be enforced as mentioned before. Whatever the result here is, there are many other holes in our team battling system such as the lack of any system to mandate honest and consistent reporting, or any central power to organize teams at all. If we are to bring attention to a problem, then we should address the other issues at hand.
It is like beating a dead horse, but the hope that this can give an understanding that an outright ban is too much work, idealistic even. If a ban could fix the problem, then why not fix other problems as well and create the ideal system?
Well, because banning isn't actually a quick fix, and an ideal system is much harder to achieve. People aren't just going to listen to a central power in a small group like this.
Double Teaming is NOT killing the "community," we are pointing our fingers at an issue that would not be a problem should we have a larger player base.
Lets say we have a bag of 5 marbles with 1 red marble inside. The activity is that you pull out a random marble and throw it back in. You are very likely to constantly pull the red marble. That's because there's not that many marbles. Increase the count to 10, now we have 1/10 chances. You're seeing this red marble less. Then you amp it up to 50, then even 100. At this point it reduces itself to a 1/100 chance, only a 1 percent chance to come across this same marble which you constantly crossed before, just because you increased the quantity of the pool.
The best solution to this is not going for a ban that forces people to act. People respond to incentives. Its not a big bang word with blurred lines and meanings like "bonds," and not any sort of vague assumption on why and what we do in teams. We are people, and we have individuality. This is apparent by how everyone brings in personal testimony more than anything else. Its all different, and in no way are any of them wrong. Trying to find a point of convergence and agreement from there just isn't going to happen.
We have to attract new members and encourage new members into entering our team battling scene. Now understand that not everyone is constantly involved in this. We have players who slip in and out, those who only see this as an occasional activity to unwind and play Vanguard. Whatever the case may be, we just need more people.
Think of the movie Cars, with Radiator Springs and how they needed to attract people as they were in danger, literally becoming wiped off the map. The solution there was to make the place more attractive and more welcoming, to open up more.
Give incentives for people and make them want to stay. That way we have a larger environment as a whole. With a growing environment, we can get an exponentially growing community once again as we did before.
...but with a rise comes a fall, and may we rise again as we did before.
Thank you for this post and thank you all as this has awakened a lot of those who have had dormant thoughts and opinions and has given the opportunity for them to be expressed.
An action which brings people here and draws out their passions, is in itself a reason to be here.
"so basically youre against it and you have power so youre losing that means you will shut this down even do there was votes and a majority agreed to ban it. but again you are in favor of it you have power so screw the small guys you win no matter what ?
damn hope this is like the new rep chat rules and no person one can have two team pages again. the people spoke and said they dont want it, in the past for what you guys are pro with you helped and voted and won. but now that this is actually something many are against you just said you wont dare change a thing even if people want to try it, want to see what comes out the other tunnel but you wont dare risk it because its not in your favor."
Never in my original post did I mention that I was going to shut down that thread, that I was losing, and that I had the power.
Re-read the whole thing. I don't even use the word "I" or even refer to myself outside of the beginning where "I" say, "let me refer to my main point."
If I wanted to shut this thread down, I would have already done so, I don't know if you notice, I am not a moderator in this section.
The whole point of formal argumentation is to treat the argument as something separate. You don't talk to using first person or even mention yourself outside of maybe some personal testimony, but even then its only brief.
This is just Straw Manning (attacking the arguer directly rather than confronting their argument) and bold assumption of something even I have never thought of. I constructed a good and clear argument using examples, even appreciating this post for existing.
"i have trully small fate in allot of people in the forum because they look out for themselves not the community or the game and even do we spoke and people see that only good thing about double/multi is more tbs nothing else it has more negatives then positives you wanna just ignore it because it doesnt suit you.
well guess thats that boys and girls going back to the original plan."
Same point as before. "suit me?" I never once talked about myself so I don't know where that came from. In terms of you having small faith in a lot of people, that is more personal than anything. I talked about general incentives, which doesn't require faith or belief in individuals, but rather the idea that people respond to positives.
In terms of multi-teaming being for tbs and nothing else.
I indirectly addressed this when I mentioned that many people have been using their personal testimonies. Its more significant that just for "tbs." Other posts have been posted proving that there is more than just this, and I paid homage to them whether they were for or against double teaming as they presented the spectrum of stories and ideas which build up the "community," and which a successful and fun system should have to offer.
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@zane
pro double teaming
you say it isolated most teams and cause conflicts, but i see mutli teaming is such a big conflict this tread was made. does that not imply that multi teaming and double teaming will not cause its conflicts ? in allot of chats i see that the conflict is with 2 teams most of the time, two very big teams even constantly at odds with one another that even the leader left it for a time. and what teams would you call struggling and how many members should double for it ? every all till one team is more active then the other, one again causing one leader to be unhappy and take shots that his members are being taken ? i can see this work out especially with certain people but what is a struggling team ? someone with 20 members and maybe only 5 are active right now ? but they have 20 members does this mean they need your members too ? like droid said allot can be twisted in these rules to suit a team, even divine souls reformed and dissbanded twice if i remember correctly with the second team losing allot of members to teams they where on as a second team. so double teaming wont always help and can infact bring one down.
Yes, double teaming can have its faults. However, I've seen it help teams that were struggling because they didn't have enough members due to life reasons or inactivity. Lending an extra hand, goes so much further beyond than just team battling: helping players improve, help structure the team, build a foundation. When your work is done, it's your choice whether or not you wish to stay and continue assisting or leave and return to your main team. I stayed on Absolute Empire because I liked the members of the team very much, I didn't have to, but I did. So yes, teams can bond through this. There isn't much of a definition of a struggling team outside of: inactive or new team that just started.
growing in double: again this was first stated i think by mythos that in double team you grow more and make more friends, but i just proved that it is possible to do this on regular none multi teams. infact it could be proven that you grow more and make more friends on none multi teaming teams since you dont stay in the two teams community or the multi teaming circle. i barely see multi teams take in new people these days with maybe one team taking one every 2 months. so it is possible to grow with both but being on single team allows you to make friends with people learn from em and you feel like you wanna fight em more cuzz you still havent seen all there skills and abilities. so yea it can work with both sides but with single the teams will learn to coopirate and work more together.
Again, we're not looking at every aspect: competitive and social benefits. People multi-team for a social benefit, which is perfectly fine however, which I've stated in my very first post: there are many alternatives to this such as skype group chats. If they want to fight alongside them: then they could always sub in every now and again, or just become full fledged members. Whatever their agenda is in terms of the social benefit: it's on them.
toxic:
zane even with multi teaming insolation and narrowmindedness maybe more evidant now as i realise we have gone full circle since pro double teams say this is possible, pro single say it is still possible even without double without the drama of people complaining members are not fighting for em. not to mention again that double/multi teams do not want to recruit new people as we are now a small community and incest among teams will only deteriorate us more. you say single team has these problems but i see that mutli teams are the ones carrying it.
Even with teams having a few double-members: you are still able to open your arms to new members or how people address them as 'randoms' into their team. I occasionally go out of my way to fight people in the main lobby early in the morning and its not bad as people may think it is. Double teaming isn't what's stopping people from recruiting people into the community.
you said you left a team to help another out. you helped started a team no shame in that, and if you left a team why did you ? because the new team is your friend ?
so want your cake and eat it too ?
but youre there own both teams, if youre there but youre on one more then the other, your helping one more trying to be on both sides. its like being with two lovers, man that must be exausting. your main comment says it helps struggling teams but why do they need help so far ? shouldnt that atleast try to look for members ? is the struggling lack of members or lack of strong members ? how much members does a struggling team need to have to be considered struggling ? how many months weeks days does it need to count as struggling ?
it just sounds like you want as many tbs as possible not train make friends or have matches. from all i see mutli teaming only has one upside and thats mutli/double teamers get to tb more. so you cant fight a regular fight ? you cant train with someone ? tb is the must the absolution ? then if tbs all you are after all youre thinking is how many tbs you can get not how you can help a team.
I left the original Neo Genesis to make a team called Blue Sorciere but I wanted to be on both because I like both teams and I wanted to be able to assist both if need be. I was told to make a decision, and I left, again: no regrets. The other members also left their teams so that we could be committed to the new team and that was that. For your information, it had nothing to do with 'strong members' or 'getting the most team battles', I honestly could give two shits about those concepts since I put the team first before myself in any occasion. Same for any other team I'm currently in or was in. I like helping people get better, improve, and learn to have fun with the game so that they aren't salty every loss, bashing and causing trouble with the opposing teams. If I can help multiple team accomplish this, then yes I'll gladly help out any team that asks me if I would like to be a part of their team. I've joined teams where I only knew 1 person and that everyone else was nothing more than complete strangers to me that I didn't particularly care for. Hanging with them and improving together and accomplishing goals together they've become friends, some even closer. So it's really not about "getting the most TBs" or "wanting to be with strong players" or "being with friends" because the first two sound very narrow-minded and very biased while the last one is well... how would I put it? At the end of the day, if you bond with a team, they're going to become your friends regardless anyway.
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same as you didnt say i, did i say you ? that was omnidirectional at a whole bunch of people.
many people have pointed it out mutli teaming has just one gain with more tbs for a person on multiple teams and not mutli teaming has ether less or none of the problems and all the positives.
people cant really ignore this since even those with mutli teaming teams are against it but they want this ban to pass because they dont wanna stop it so they dont become enemies with there "friends".
we are a community just because we all dont agree on something doesnt mean we cant try it. we tried so many things that ended with so many drama but this can potentially stop one and help us grow.
sure it wont be easy
sure same as mutli teaming took months to grow single teams will take months to grow.
yes not all new teams will rise and yes those relying on members from other teams will fal.
but we whats the fun in the arguing, the backstabbing, all this negativity just so you can get so many tbs? way so many tbs ? does it improve your life ? do you get paid big for winning ?
will it help the community ? yes
will it fix all problems ? no
do we have to work for it ? yes
will there still be problems dissagreement drama ? hell yes, but atleast this way we got more teams more options because when there is drama lately in one team problems it chains to like 5 different teams.
we get it guys you want your leader power you want your team but whats the point in living in a paper home if youre scared that a breeze will fall it down ?
i know from the start this vote wouldnt effect anything for teams in area because most of the people that can set the rules wont do it since they are pro mutli/double. even do the people that are on here more then them the people that know this community better then the circle in the forum want it to stop want it to improve, it just doesnt suit you, you dont see a problem because you need it so you ignore others that say please please stop.
so your option is ignore it we need it even if it is more cancer then healthy.
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@Hope
Finally someone with a well structured argument. Props to you for that.
Now for the issue at hand:
"Let me start with the main point, people respond to incentives."
I completely agree with you on that one and that is the reason why i think double teaming is a bad idea which brings me to my next point.
"Of course, an outright ban has no incentives for both members and leaders unless they support it."
"Double Teaming is NOT killing the "community," we are pointing our fingers at an issue that would not be a problem should we have a larger player base."
I put these two points together because this actually answers both of them. Indeed double teaming does not kill the community, it does however restrict it in more ways than one, because of double teaming this community restricts itself into its current player base and it gives 0 incentives for leaders to try and get new people into the team battling scene. Banning double teaming will actually give leaders incentive to go to the starting area and look for new members to recruit. Limiting each person to one team will open the way for new players to come to the Team System and be introduced into the forum and the area community. The double teaming system, as it is right now, gives 0 incentives for leaders to actually look for new members and introduce them to the community, its not only about the system being attractive enough to make them stay, because to make people stay in the community, we have to get them in in the first place, and double teaming does not help with that. That outright ban is the thing thats gonna give people incentives to make their teams grow with new blood and rejuvenate the team system to a certain extent.
"The best solution to this is not going for a ban that forces people to act. People respond to incentives. Its not a big bang word with blurred lines and meanings like "bonds," and not any sort of vague assumption on why and what we do in teams. We are people, and we have individuality. This is apparent by how everyone brings in personal testimony more than anything else. Its all different, and in no way are any of them wrong. Trying to find a point of convergence and agreement from there just isn't going to happen."
Banning is a possible solution.
If you want facts I might as well give some to you.
RT is the longest standing team on area, constantly active and team battles constantly, and by far the least drama inducing, no reworks,reforms name changes etc since its creation. Also has a lot of different active members each time. Why? this team is doing something right which is having multi teaming and subbing banned(also the only team who actually tries to recruit randoms on area).
Every team on area is constantly reforming, reworking,changing names, disbanding and regrouping again, now tell me, does that look like a healthy system to you? because to me it certainly isn't. Reforming a system takes actions, talking about a ban being idealistic and not even practical without even trying to apply it or change the system in some way does not solve anything, we have to at least try it and see how it works out, nothing comes without effort and I'm willing to support the effort these voters put to make a healthier team system and a more moral one to boot.
"We have to attract new members and encourage new members into entering our team battling scene. Now understand that not everyone is constantly involved in this. We have players who slip in and out, those who only see this as an occasional activity to unwind and play Vanguard. Whatever the case may be, we just need more people."
"Give incentives for people and make them want to stay. That way we have a larger environment as a whole. With a growing environment, we can get an exponentially growing community once again as we did before."
To attract new members we have to make the effort to do so, People have to actually try and recruit members from "randoms" and give new people a chance. Do you know why people don't do that? Simply because multi teaming is easier, and you just allow it. It's hard to give people incentives when you just gave them the easy option to go for. Sometimes restricting peoples options actually drives people to the right direction, which is why laws exist. You have to get leaders to put effort into gathering members for their teams, to be able to consistently team battle and have fun, to give chances to the new players on area who love to play the game as much as we do.
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1. Restrict team count to an upper limit. A team with 30 members not only kills competition (due to lack of opponents to play) but when combined with multi-teaming ruins team identity as a whole. (If 75% of two teams are exactly the same, there's really no difference in the two and is pointless. If anything, it can be abused for win-loss ratios by posting wins for 1 and losses on the other to keep records "clean".)
2. Allow substitutes for low count teams only. If your team only has X amount of players and thus probably won't be able to constantly play, then yes, substitutes will be required. If your team has like 10 people and you can't get 3 to be around reliably, then you should reconsider who deserves to be a team member.
3. Allow "double-team-playable"; as in a player may play for two teams. (This brings a bit of lenience to those who really have gotten attached to more than 1 team over time; do not abuse this to make sister teams that are pretty much the same roster.) However, this does not mean that you can't be allowed to be in multiple team chats for those afraid of losing contact with friends. That's up to the teams to decide. You'll still get 90% of the experience just by being in the chat and being active there. You can watch, you can coach, give tips and advice. You just can't play for them.
4. Repost: Enforce honest records. Post-TB, both teams should report within 5 minutes and it's on both teams to confirm the results are correct in both threads. No skewed false win-rates.
5. Repost: As mentioned prior and by other people, encourage people to go out and look for newer players to join. There's little to no attempt to widen the community when some identify the issue of the community dying.
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You know what would be nice.... actually coming to a compromise or agreement. Yes its true, some people are 100% against double teaming (I mean I did flip my shit that time when hope decided to make two idol teams, but then again maybe that was just because I hate Love Live and similar stuff but I digress.) There are also some who are 100% for double teaming, thinking it doesn't really have an impact and we have some people in-between.
So why not make a compromise... or at least try to since from what I can see at this point its slowly devolving into a full on hate festival over here.
I mean like a simple solution is just to have most or all teams keep an up-to-date members list and then let the other teams decide if they want to act on a double teaming person and kick them out of their team if they so desire or have a hatred against double teaming. Or you could just put a limit on a number of teams a single person is allowed to join or such. (E.g like 2 maximum)
Also even if you somehow get it banned, you have a major flaw which is Implementation and Enforcement because one person cannot force or impose their ban onto another team, after all its their team not yours. And even if it gets implemented, its team leaders who will enforce and their is not going be a punishment for breaking the rule.
(Note: was created before NubKnightZ posted just after Zane's post)
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pro
if they dont have time and the team doesnt have people to look out for it wouldnt it be better to disband it ? i mean i love area too but the life outside of my computer is more important to me and a choose it over area in a heartbeat. i was close to dissbanding my own team when some people just said hey let us help. in the end the object is not running a team but being on a team. wouldnt it be better to be on one with a few people that have the time to set tbs rather then kick a dead horse ? and even so i remembered you where both a members of the original ds and ae in the past, and even do you say now you love it something did happen that it dissbanded and you formed a team that had a no mutli teaming rule if i remember correctly. fact is you yourself prooved then that mutli teaming has its problems if you left both teams.
growing
so if youre good friends with a team you must sub on them or what youre not friends ?
but you yourself said there are alternate options even fight with em join in there training. even my team train allot with other teams and mix it up, but when it comes to tbs we show what our team is. you dont need to sub for a team because there your friend, or do you date other girls when your wife is at home ? (unless you know xD menage)
Toxic
it does actually since look at most teams, same people that have been on here for years, you yourself say they are considered randoms. even my team and many others who dont mutli team had members who where considered randoms or weaklings and they grew because they got a chance.
you seem to only look at whats positive for you, im sorry for what happened with BS but people dont agree with you and you only keep repeating your same narrow minded view that you think it helps that mutli teaming must be the best option. people once taught smoking was harmless and in time that too was proven wrong. zane i get it thats your view but can we agree that sometimes our views are potentially wrong ? you yourself had a team with no mutli team and so many came to join you but you yourself send people away claiming that the where not up to standards of what a team members should be for you, so cant we just open our minds ? cant we try to bring in and help people grow ? or do you rather alienate those you see in the forest till you find the golden goose ? im not saying we need to only take in good people hell a few weeks ago my team took in a total novice to train.
you say mutli teams help grow help get allong but its actions are the opisite with those teams sharing only the same people giving almost no one thats new a chance to grow, it is infact keeping them in a closed circle untill they see someone they like and try to bring em in. there are even mutli teaming teams controlling some of these new members telling em to not go on another team till they leave that team and the leader might tell em to come back.
so how is mutli teaming helping the community grow improve and communcate if we are ostractzing others and keeping a closed and narrow mind and our only respons for mutli/double is its helping and youre narrow minded ?
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I personally am against double and multi teaming in the first place. I don't see how can one even try to stand up for such idea. I do agree that sometimes one or two teams need a sub for a team battle or such which can be fine if it is mentioned but being in two teams at once is as being in no team at all.
I also find that teams while open should have some team limit so more teams are open and more team battles are offered instead of having a single team with 40 members where only 15 of them are active. Some major reset should be done. At least among some official CFA teams that are mentioned on forum.
Community is small and all, I know but I find that with this tempo there won't be any community but a bunch of people that know each other and just switch the team when they feel like it.
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Banning is a possible solution.
If you want facts I might as well give some to you.
RT is the longest standing team on area, constantly active and team battles constantly, and by far the least drama inducing, no reworks,reforms name changes etc since its creation. Also has a lot of different active members each time. Why? this team is doing something right which is having multi teaming and subbing banned(also the only team who actually tries to recruit randoms on area).
"It is like beating a dead horse, but the hope that this can give an understanding that an outright ban is too much work, idealistic even. If a ban could fix the problem, then why not fix other problems as well and create the ideal system?
Well, because banning isn't actually a quick fix, and an ideal system is much harder to achieve. People aren't just going to listen to a central power in a small group like this."
I put these two points together because this actually answers both of them. Indeed double teaming does not kill the community, it does however restrict it in more ways than one, because of double teaming this community restricts itself into its current player base and it gives 0 incentives for leaders to try and get new people into the team battling scene. Banning double teaming will actually give leaders incentive to go to the starting area and look for new members to recruit. Limiting each person to one team will open the way for new players to come to the Team System and be introduced into the forum and the area community. The double teaming system, as it is right now, gives 0 incentives for leaders to actually look for new members and introduce them to the community, its not only about the system being attractive enough to make them stay, because to make people stay in the community, we have to get them in in the first place, and double teaming does not help with that. That outright ban is the thing thats gonna give people incentives to make their teams grow with new blood and rejuvenate the team system to a certain extent.
A ban gives leader 0 incentives to actually follow it. Being forced is not an incentive. As Spider mentioned as well, Implementation and Enforcement is a problem.
Any way to introduce people into the community is fine, it doesn't have to be limited to teams. We can endorse our tournaments, and bring people here however way we wish to. Simply wanting to support the community is an incentive itself which requires no action and has no problem in its way. All that's necessary is compromise now that we have pinpointed the problem. Compromise on the double teaming bad is not possible, seeing as how this thread has been going, but we all seem to agree on one thing.
Our community needs to grow again.
In which case, action can be taken towards this.
- Recruiting members in the forest and main area. Double teaming still exists, but Callum has already started a team with a sort of system that is more invited to new members of this group.
--- At this point let me digress into my own personal thing. You can exclude this from the actual argument, I just want to bring this up.
- I had the Grade System Event to bring people in. Those people eventually ended up joining teams and are here today. Spider, pidoves, ryuji, just to mention a few and I remember a good deal of them and appreciated their participation. All I had to do was set up an event and activity that was exclusive to this forum and that in itself was my incentive to stay. Note that I had this whole idea in mind when I set up GSE and it was actually my way to literally bring life back to the forum and for the longest time I am aware that people were against it as the forum had evolved to only be about it, but I feel that it was better that way actually since at least there was life.
---
All it takes is recognizing the problem. Now that the problem is recognized, while we cannot come to an agreement on one thing, which is the ban, we may be able to find an agreement in getting new members in. So far there hasn't seemed to be any argument in actually getting new members into this "community."
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well i limit my team to around 25 with removing one or two inactive once amonth
ofcourse no team will hold on to the limit which isnt too bad in my opinion since teams need to evolve in there own right.
but even so subbing is not needed since tbs isnt the only thing a team can do any not the only way to enjoy being on a team
allot of teams pss df ds (new one), and even teams who have no names yet that i am helping out are recruiting without subbing or replying on mutli teamers because they saw how it ended for most teams and a applause and help em because i know how hard it is making a team without those. i myself tried multi teaming when i first started a team two years ago but it was like i had no members at all because no one wanted to fight for my side. so i kicked em all out untill i was left with two members, me and one of my best friends on here. then weasel came then tobi and so on and so on started coming. yes my team struggled even last year we lost almost all of our core members. ether to offers from other teams or to life situations till we where pretty much the only on mutli teaming team. yes it is a struggle and now i was way more members then my limit and when im full i help other teams who need it. something that others seem to only see possible with mutli teams, but i have seen mutli teams constantly rise and fall and the none multi teams they last longer. some fall but the ones with leaders that have the drive and keep it, the one that trains there other members to lead not just fight. those teams those teams wont die easly.
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Banning is a possible solution.
If you want facts I might as well give some to you.
RT is the longest standing team on area, constantly active and team battles constantly, and by far the least drama inducing, no reworks,reforms name changes etc since its creation. Also has a lot of different active members each time. Why? this team is doing something right which is having multi teaming and subbing banned(also the only team who actually tries to recruit randoms on area).
"It is like beating a dead horse, but the hope that this can give an understanding that an outright ban is too much work, idealistic even. If a ban could fix the problem, then why not fix other problems as well and create the ideal system?
Well, because banning isn't actually a quick fix, and an ideal system is much harder to achieve. People aren't just going to listen to a central power in a small group like this."
I put these two points together because this actually answers both of them. Indeed double teaming does not kill the community, it does however restrict it in more ways than one, because of double teaming this community restricts itself into its current player base and it gives 0 incentives for leaders to try and get new people into the team battling scene. Banning double teaming will actually give leaders incentive to go to the starting area and look for new members to recruit. Limiting each person to one team will open the way for new players to come to the Team System and be introduced into the forum and the area community. The double teaming system, as it is right now, gives 0 incentives for leaders to actually look for new members and introduce them to the community, its not only about the system being attractive enough to make them stay, because to make people stay in the community, we have to get them in in the first place, and double teaming does not help with that. That outright ban is the thing thats gonna give people incentives to make their teams grow with new blood and rejuvenate the team system to a certain extent.
A ban gives leader 0 incentives to actually follow it. Being forced is not an incentive. As Spider mentioned as well, Implementation and Enforcement is a problem.
Any way to introduce people into the community is fine, it doesn't have to be limited to teams. We can endorse our tournaments, and bring people here however way we wish to. Simply wanting to support the community is an incentive itself which requires no action and has no problem in its way. All that's necessary is compromise now that we have pinpointed the problem. Compromise on the double teaming bad is not possible, seeing as how this thread has been going, but we all seem to agree on one thing.
Our community needs to grow again.
In which case, action can be taken towards this.
- Recruiting members in the forest and main area. Double teaming still exists, but Callum has already started a team with a sort of system that is more invited to new members of this group.
--- At this point let me digress into my own personal thing. You can exclude this from the actual argument, I just want to bring this up.
- I had the Grade System Event to bring people in. Those people eventually ended up joining teams and are here today. Spider, pidoves, ryuji, just to mention a few and I remember a good deal of them and appreciated their participation. All I had to do was set up an event and activity that was exclusive to this forum and that in itself was my incentive to stay. Note that I had this whole idea in mind when I set up GSE and it was actually my way to literally bring life back to the forum and for the longest time I am aware that people were against it as the forum had evolved to only be about it, but I feel that it was better that way actually since at least there was life.
---
All it takes is recognizing the problem. Now that the problem is recognized, while we cannot come to an agreement on one thing, which is the ban, we may be able to find an agreement in getting new members in. So far there hasn't seemed to be any argument in actually getting new members into this "community."
so youre saying you dont do it cuzz its work ? everything we do on here from starting a team recruiting members everything is a bit of work which is why we enjoy it so much.
if people here are fighting for this and agreeing then they are by far ready to work.
the people are speaking that they are ready to do what they must this forum every speech we make it is work.
and we already know again yes banning is NOT A QUICK FIX. like i said before it might take atleast a year for things to kick up if mutli teaming stops. but your argument is you arnt ready to work but i see a good number of people are ready.
this forum yea its pretty much dead because no one inforces the rules lets face it this forum is not a place to spend time or talk on but we are speaking on the problem of community and teams.
callum has always been recruiting trust me im the one helping him out for a while now but he himself relied later on mutli team and he once again is going to none mutli so this isnt anything new.
and im not gonna mention it now but the GSE, it had its problems most of us know it but again youre saying they should come to us, why cant we go to them too ? this forum is not a place for a community since there are basically no rules of conduct and who ever is incharge sets what ever rules for what ever people.
ofcourse there cant be an agreement because some benifite from it which is why we voted on it and the majority agrees that multi is bad. we try to bring in new people but those in multi teams feels there is no need to bring in anyone new only to look inside for members till there is an incest among most teams.
ofcourse no one agrees because there will always be dissagreement when something favors one more then the other but people here they want to work for it and those that dont ofcourse vote no but those same people will complain the same complains later.
both single and multi seem to have the same positive argument but only mutli seems to cause problems, hate, greed, and insolation among fighters. if you want all the positives you get then you already got em with single. what are we losing with the removal of multi ? all the negative stuff then ok why are we arguing then ?
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pro
if they dont have time and the team doesnt have people to look out for it wouldnt it be better to disband it ? I don't understand why you would want to disband a team for a temporary inconvenience. Just exit yourself out of the team and let your members continue. If they're having trouble, they can always ask for help. And as you said, some people approached you after you were close to disbanding your team, offering to help you out. I've done the same thing for many teams. So are you implying that your team would've disbanded if they hadn't shown up? Did you not want or believe in your members to continue on without you?
growing
so if youre good friends with a team you must sub on them or what youre not friends ?
but you yourself said there are alternate options even fight with em join in there training. even my team train allot with other teams and mix it up, but when it comes to tbs we show what our team is. you dont need to sub for a team because there your friend, or do you date other girls when your wife is at home ? (unless you know xD menage)
I'm not saying they HAVE to sub to maintain friends. I'm saying if they desperately really want to TB alongside their friends who is on a different team, they can very much do so through subbing if given the chance. Other alternatives including participating in Team Tournaments, Play other games together, or even talk in a group chats. Also as a side note, can you please refrain from using marriage as an example, I find it horrible to compare this to that. Everyone has a reason for double teaming.
you seem to only look at whats positive for you, im sorry for what happened with BS but people dont agree with you and you only keep repeating your same narrow minded view that you think it helps that mutli teaming must be the best option. people once taught smoking was harmless and in time that too was proven wrong. zane i get it thats your view but can we agree that sometimes our views are potentially wrong ? you yourself had a team with no mutli team and so many came to join you but you yourself send people away claiming that the where not up to standards of what a team members should be for you, so cant we just open our minds ? cant we try to bring in and help people grow ? or do you rather alienate those you see in the forest till you find the golden goose ? im not saying we need to only take in good people hell a few weeks ago my team took in a total novice to train.
I honestly don't know what you're sorry for or why for that matter, Blue Sorciere is still exist and I'd greatly appreciate it if it wasn't brought up anymore since I was asked to state my experience on why I'm pro-double teaming. I'm only repeating the fact that Double-Teaming has benefits and that it should continue to be part of the community for legitimate reasons. Please pay attention when I say "LEGITIMATE REASONS". I'm pretty sure people are not taught that smoking is harmless nor do I fail to see why this is even being used an example. I've never once sent people away for 'standards', I give everyone a fair shot unless the entire team says "No" to said person. Like I said joining or recruiting 'strong players' is a concept that I give little to no shit about because anyone can become 'stronger/good', it just takes a good environment and good effort. Everyone has a purpose on a team and their experiences can help lead to the growth and improvement of other fighters. That's always been the foundation of why Divine Souls allowed double teaming: to bring what they learn from the outside, inside. Also as stated before, yes Double Team can lead to problems and lead to issues however the only real issue that's being brought up regarding it, and the whole reason the thread was even made was because: People were tired of seeing the same people fight on multiple teams. By multiple I mean 4-5 different teams. This is a competitive issue and as I said before, even though I am pro-double teaming, the way people abuse this is what's affecting the competitive scene. I've been very open minded and stated my personal beliefs as to why Double Teaming should exist and stated my own experiences. Nothing have I said has been narrow-minded. I've taken into the account of everything you've said about how double teaming 'ruins the community', how it helps improve the community, how it 'ruins teams', how it 'helps teams', and how it ruins the competitive scene. I wouldn't be posting if I didn't consider any of those things. I'm not saying I like double teaming because I can be with friends, I'm merely stating that double teaming has had pros through my experiences and thus my opinion and belief for this system to stay should be as such.
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pro
if they dont have time and the team doesnt have people to look out for it wouldnt it be better to disband it ? I don't understand why you would want to disband a team for a temporary inconvenience. Just exit yourself out of the team and let your members continue. If they're having trouble, they can always ask for help. And as you said, some people approached you after you were close to disbanding your team, offering to help you out. I've done the same thing for many teams. So are you implying that your team would've disbanded if they hadn't shown up? Did you not want or believe in your members to continue on without you?
growing
so if youre good friends with a team you must sub on them or what youre not friends ?
but you yourself said there are alternate options even fight with em join in there training. even my team train allot with other teams and mix it up, but when it comes to tbs we show what our team is. you dont need to sub for a team because there your friend, or do you date other girls when your wife is at home ? (unless you know xD menage)
I'm not saying they HAVE to sub to maintain friends. I'm saying if they desperately really want to TB alongside their friends who is on a different team, they can very much do so through subbing if given the chance. Other alternatives including participating in Team Tournaments, Play other games together, or even talk in a group chats. Also as a side note, can you please refrain from using marriage as an example, I find it horrible to compare this to that. Everyone has a reason for double teaming.
you seem to only look at whats positive for you, im sorry for what happened with BS but people dont agree with you and you only keep repeating your same narrow minded view that you think it helps that mutli teaming must be the best option. people once taught smoking was harmless and in time that too was proven wrong. zane i get it thats your view but can we agree that sometimes our views are potentially wrong ? you yourself had a team with no mutli team and so many came to join you but you yourself send people away claiming that the where not up to standards of what a team members should be for you, so cant we just open our minds ? cant we try to bring in and help people grow ? or do you rather alienate those you see in the forest till you find the golden goose ? im not saying we need to only take in good people hell a few weeks ago my team took in a total novice to train.
I honestly don't know what you're sorry for or why for that matter, Blue Sorciere is still exist and I'd greatly appreciate it if it wasn't brought up anymore since I was asked to state my experience on why I'm pro-double teaming. I'm only repeating the fact that Double-Teaming has benefits and that it should continue to be part of the community for legitimate reasons. Please pay attention when I say "LEGITIMATE REASONS". I'm pretty sure people are not taught that smoking is harmless nor do I fail to see why this is even being used an example. I've never once sent people away for 'standards', I give everyone a fair shot unless the entire team says "No" to said person. Like I said joining or recruiting 'strong players' is a concept that I give little to no shit about because anyone can become 'stronger/good', it just takes a good environment and good effort. Everyone has a purpose on a team and their experiences can help lead to the growth and improvement of other fighters. That's always been the foundation of why Divine Souls allowed double teaming: to bring what they learn from the outside, inside. Also as stated before, yes Double Team can lead to problems and lead to issues however the only real issue that's being brought up regarding it, and the whole reason the thread was even made was because: People were tired of seeing the same people fight on multiple teams. By multiple I mean 4-5 different teams. This is a competitive issue and as I said before, even though I am pro-double teaming, the way people abuse this is what's affecting the competitive scene. I've been very open minded and stated my personal beliefs as to why Double Teaming should exist and stated my own experiences. Nothing have I said has been narrow-minded. I've taken into the account of everything you've said about how double teaming 'ruins the community', how it helps improve the community, how it 'ruins teams', how it 'helps teams', and how it ruins the competitive scene. I wouldn't be posting if I didn't consider any of those things. I'm not saying I like double teaming because I can be with friends, I'm merely stating that double teaming has had pros through my experiences and thus my opinion and belief for this system to stay should be as such.
wow allot of my convos are missing form that just pieces.
but you yourself almost every team you where on or is on are ether dissbanded or inactive minus NR and TA who all shared some members right ? you say double teaming works but your past is a good example of why it has more cons then pro.
you could go to one stop because it has cheaper products but in the end if the gas youre burning costs you more then the stop thats just a few steps from your house is it worth it. or maybe you dont know that youre basically burning the same more gas then you need to?
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wow allot of my convos are missing form that just pieces. but you yourself almost every team you where on or is on are ether dissbanded or inactive minus NR and TA who do share some members right ? you say double teaming works but your past is a good example of why it has more cons then pro.
you could go to one stop because it has cheaper products but in the end if the gas youre burning costs you more then the stop thats just a few steps from your house is it worth it. or maybe you dont know that youre basically burning the same ammount of gas ?
I only kept the parts of the conversation that I wanted to touch upon. It's nothing personal. Also my teams disbanding are not the result of multi or even double teaming. They were disbanded due to internal disputes or inactivity (as in no one was around to participate in team activities due to personal life). I would like to further mention: Rising Eclipse/Ragnarok Storm did not allow multi-teaming at any point whatsoever. Neither did Cosmic Origins. Absolute Empire only allowed double-teaming with a legitimate purpose. Night Raid is the first team I've made that has allowed double-teaming to prevent any conflicts. If you want to ask about Divine Souls or Sanctuary Alliance, you're better off asking Nova, Mythos or NeoBuster. And I believe I should mention that Crescent Moon (A team that I was on before joining Team Asteroid) was disbanded because the leader had real life obligations that she needed to fulfill, also this team did not allow double teaming. In short, none of these teams disbanded as a result of multi/double teaming: for most did not allow it. Thank you very much~
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wow allot of my convos are missing form that just pieces. but you yourself almost every team you where on or is on are ether dissbanded or inactive minus NR and TA who do share some members right ? you say double teaming works but your past is a good example of why it has more cons then pro.
you could go to one stop because it has cheaper products but in the end if the gas youre burning costs you more then the stop thats just a few steps from your house is it worth it. or maybe you dont know that youre basically burning the same ammount of gas ?
I only kept the parts of the conversation that I wanted to touch upon. It's nothing personal. Also my teams disbanding are not the result of multi or even double teaming. They were disbanded due to internal disputes or inactivity (as in no one was around to participate in team activities due to personal life).
still most of us know for a fact some came over multi team. and if people cant tb then why be on a team or lead one if they cant be active ? i say let someone that is more active get a chance to lead to grow. you cant single handedly hold a team together without work without help. the reason some teams live so long some teams are so amazing is because they do the work.
youre speaking pro of multi teams but you ignore the negative how so many of those teams you love dissbanded via problems i will not state here, but mutli team played a role. even you yourself made RS by leaving AE DS and what ever other team you where on to form it with those members that followed you. and stated that they are not allowed to be on other teams. so for a time even you agreed there was a problem with multi team, am i wrong ? ofcourse its easier but there will always be struggles and not everyone can be a leader of a team. if you want to help a team grow then you dont automatically need to be a leader to do this (wow im gonna probably stop talking soon since im repeating myself again) you can just be a member be a fighter grow in the team and people and learn form others. we cant just ignore what doesnt convenience because we dont wanna be proven wrong, or we are just sticking to a one narrow mind set.
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still most of us know for a fact some came over multi team. and if people cant tb then why be on a team or lead one if they cant be active ? i say let someone that is more active get a chance to lead to grow. you cant single handedly hold a team together without work without help. the reason some teams live so long some teams are so amazing is because they do the work.
youre speaking pro of multi teams but you ignore the negative how so many of those teams you love dissbanded via problems i will not state here, but mutli team played a role. even you yourself made RS by leaving AE DS and what ever other team you where on to form it with those members that followed you. and stated that they are not allowed to be on other teams. so for a time even you agreed there was a problem with multi team, am i wrong ? ofcourse its easier but there will always be struggles and not everyone can be a leader of a team. if you want to help a team grow then you dont automatically need to be a leader to do this (wow im gonna probably stop talking soon since im repeating myself again) you can just be a member be a fighter grow in the team and people and learn form others. we cant just ignore what doesnt convenience because we dont wanna be proven wrong, or we are just sticking to a one narrow mind set.
For the last time, multi-teaming did not play a role in any of those teams disbanding. Ragnarok Storm didn't allow double teaming for the reason that we all aimed to be committed to the team. Multi/Double Teaming wasn't a problem. We very much could've allowed it but we didn't. So yes, you are wrong. The only one who is sticking to a narrow mindset is you by assuming the reason teams disbanded was a result of double/multi teaming. I can list each and every reason in full detail as to why each team disbanded or went inactive, none of those were a result of multi/double teaming. Also if you're repeating yourself over and over again, that's just you. As I've said, I'm merely stating my experience, my beliefs, and that I understand and comprehend and respect why people would be against it and why or how it may be 'killing' CFA in more ways than one.
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@Hope
"All that's necessary is compromise now that we have pinpointed the problem. Compromise on the double teaming bad is not possible, seeing as how this thread has been going, but we all seem to agree on one thing.
Our community needs to grow again."
Allow me to start with this because this is the first thing we actually have to address. I believe you are already aware that this post is a poll right? and a poll about whether double teaming should be banned nonetheless.
Now let's check out the results so far:
54 total votes
26 in favor of the ban
10 against it
18 say that it at least needs to be limited in some way
now what does that show us? does it seem that people cant agree on the ban? because the poll results say the opposite. 48.2% of the voters (which is about half and the majority) want to implement a ban on double teaming specifically and 33.3% more want it to be at least limited in some shape or form. Only 18.5% of the voters believe there are no problems with it. In other words 81.5 percent of us actually agree that there is something wrong with double teaming in general, therefore a ban isnt as far fetched as you make it to be and something has to be done about double teaming.
"It is like beating a dead horse, but the hope that this can give an understanding that an outright ban is too much work, idealistic even. If a ban could fix the problem, then why not fix other problems as well and create the ideal system?
Well, because banning isn't actually a quick fix, and an ideal system is much harder to achieve. People aren't just going to listen to a central power in a small group like this."
"A ban gives leader 0 incentives to actually follow it. Being forced is not an incentive. As Spider mentioned as well, Implementation and Enforcement is a problem."
A ban is far from an idealistic approach to things, in fact a ban is the easiest solution to the problem, and also, a Ban is something you force people to do which is far from idealistic, if the majority of the voters request a ban, then the mods have to implement it in some way shape or form at least to the places where area is concerned (tbs, forums, the game itself) if the mods cannot implement a ban requested by the community then they are doing something wrong.
Restrictions are needed to build a solid community, if you think a ban is far fetched then you sir are either an idealist who thinks he can resolve things without consequences or your deliberately trying to build something chaotic.
"All it takes is recognizing the problem. Now that the problem is recognized, while we cannot come to an agreement on one thing, which is the ban, we may be able to find an agreement in getting new members in. So far there hasn't seemed to be any argument in actually getting new members into this "community.""
But you are seeing the problem from one side only. Building up the community depends on a lot of parameters, and banning double teaming is a big step to the fixing of that problem. However we are not talking about that certain problem right now, we are talking about Double teaming specifically and the poll clearly shows that its a problem, if you choose to disregard that fact then you simply don't care enough about what the community has to say.
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If you were to ban double teaming at the moment, if we're to take into account the current situation, you would greatly reduce the number of teams running around, which is a double-edged sword. Sure, you prevent the problem of people being able to cover multiple spots in a team battle, but you also then force rosters of sister teams back onto the original roster, or whatever is deemed the original roster, which will greatly bloat their size and make it really hard to set up team battles of reasonable size with ease. That might seem like a bit of an odd complaint, because leaders tend to interact and call the shots on what's happening, but certain teams lacking roster caps is another thing that could easily become as much of a problem as this vaguely claims to be.
I'm not against the idea of restricting double teaming, because I can see the argument of our community being a bit more tight-knit. I don't think people should be able to claim a position on 4-5 teams that are essentially sister teams of the same team; that's caused problems in actual sports and esports before, let alone our casual system. But because this community also has a hard time reaching out to other people (I saw an argument earlier asking why we didn't reach out to people on Map 1 of Area and I laughed, really hard), it's hard to get new blood interested in this community. People also overlook the fact that, myself included, this place gets into a lot of pointless drama. If people don't want to be a part of pointless drama, why would they bother coming over here and interacting to some degree? They just want to play the game.
Essentially, I think the real problem is that you want to freshen up how team battling feels as an experience and are assuming this is the problem that holds it back, when in reality we're rather clique-y and to abolish this entirely would possibly make things even worse. If anything, what you might consider doing is trying to be creative with how team battles go. If it's competitive every time, of course it's going to get boring. Go for fun fights.
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Oh how this has devolved from proper discussion....
I'll give my proper thoughts when I get home later in the afternoon but on short notice....
Hope, thank you for your thoughts and passionate speech I'll have a couple things to say when I can.
Jai, I understand your passion but you should relax a bit more on this and think your posts through just s bit more. Your emotions are running far to high. (And your grammar is murdering me my friend DX)
To others I'll mention things that I want to bring up, look forward to my lengthy post when u get the chance.
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I'm not partaking in this discussion but I'm going to state very clearly that I'm not going to tolerate spamming stupid, useless shit in this thread. I deleted several pointless posts and you all who made them know who you are. This is a serious debate (regardless of my opinion of how asinine it is), so if you have nothing to contribute to the topic beyond "this is stupid" or a gif about nothing, DO NOT POST.
Bless.
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If you were to ban double teaming at the moment, if we're to take into account the current situation, you would greatly reduce the number of teams running around, which is a double-edged sword. Sure, you prevent the problem of people being able to cover multiple spots in a team battle, but you also then force rosters of sister teams back onto the original roster, or whatever is deemed the original roster, which will greatly bloat their size and make it really hard to set up team battles of reasonable size with ease. That might seem like a bit of an odd complaint, because leaders tend to interact and call the shots on what's happening, but certain teams lacking roster caps is another thing that could easily become as much of a problem as this vaguely claims to be.
I'm not against the idea of restricting double teaming, because I can see the argument of our community being a bit more tight-knit. I don't think people should be able to claim a position on 4-5 teams that are essentially sister teams of the same team; that's caused problems in actual sports and esports before, let alone our casual system. But because this community also has a hard time reaching out to other people (I saw an argument earlier asking why we didn't reach out to people on Map 1 of Area and I laughed, really hard), it's hard to get new blood interested in this community. People also overlook the fact that, myself included, this place gets into a lot of pointless drama. If people don't want to be a part of pointless drama, why would they bother coming over here and interacting to some degree? They just want to play the game.
Essentially, I think the real problem is that you want to freshen up how team battling feels as an experience and are assuming this is the problem that holds it back, when in reality we're rather clique-y and to abolish this entirely would possibly make things even worse. If anything, what you might consider doing is trying to be creative with how team battles go. If it's competitive every time, of course it's going to get boring. Go for fun fights.
berly you have been away for a long time from teams, but allot of the people are on the same teams, we even call some teams now sub teams because they literally have the same members just a different name and leader, from that point of view we are not losing anything other then a teams second name since those people will still be on the same team. right now we cant really say let the leaders solve the problems since you get one teams multi members which gets it in there favor. while the community themselves spoke. so far i see people like asaka who never even had an account and gone form most of area for years come on and vote because she was told vote. as for roster caps like most things we can control that but teams themselves even my members when we grow allot move on try to make there own teams or join others.
yes drama we know enough. but if allot of things change for some peoples favor cant they change for the ohers favor to especially when its a vote ?
and we try but most people have there mind set. multi team comes from those who cant keep there own teams up asking for help. it didnt used to be a big problem in the past since it was small and yes it got out of hand. but lets face it limits in one month like the rules for the drama chat will change or be completely erased. voting to limit it is almost the same as voting no since people will simple create rules to exploit or break and erase em. and those that now see that they are on the less favored side want to compromise because they are indeed fearing for there own gain. i believe that in time as i see so many people that dont even cardfight on area anymore come vote for limited it might pass yes because there is no set date for this .
but the immediate the people that are on here daily spoke and they said yes stop this yes it is a problem, and the people with multi teams agree multi and single have the same positives and if that is so then why is it a problem to remove multi and double when people agree double is more porblematic and has more problems and negatives ?
i know with the majority of people in power the dont want to bring a change here they wont stop it they will just keep arguing like a superman vs goku argument even if you lay proof down infront of em because they wont want to be in the wrong or lose and if a change is brought it will be short because like many showed there not willing to work for it and rather go the easy root even if there own past and present proofed that it isnt working.
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Oh how this has devolved from proper discussion....
I'll give my proper thoughts when I get home later in the afternoon but on short notice....
Hope, thank you for your thoughts and passionate speech I'll have a couple things to say when I can.
Jai, I understand your passion but you should relax a bit more on this and think your posts through just s bit more. Your emotions are running far to high. (And your grammar is murdering me my friend DX)
To others I'll mention things that I want to bring up, look forward to my lengthy post when u get the chance.
yea trying to post fast since this is moving fast. but i am pretty calm dont worry.
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If you were to ban double teaming at the moment, if we're to take into account the current situation, you would greatly reduce the number of teams running around, which is a double-edged sword. Sure, you prevent the problem of people being able to cover multiple spots in a team battle, but you also then force rosters of sister teams back onto the original roster, or whatever is deemed the original roster, which will greatly bloat their size and make it really hard to set up team battles of reasonable size with ease. That might seem like a bit of an odd complaint, because leaders tend to interact and call the shots on what's happening, but certain teams lacking roster caps is another thing that could easily become as much of a problem as this vaguely claims to be.
I'm not against the idea of restricting double teaming, because I can see the argument of our community being a bit more tight-knit. I don't think people should be able to claim a position on 4-5 teams that are essentially sister teams of the same team; that's caused problems in actual sports and esports before, let alone our casual system. But because this community also has a hard time reaching out to other people (I saw an argument earlier asking why we didn't reach out to people on Map 1 of Area and I laughed, really hard), it's hard to get new blood interested in this community. People also overlook the fact that, myself included, this place gets into a lot of pointless drama. If people don't want to be a part of pointless drama, why would they bother coming over here and interacting to some degree? They just want to play the game.
Essentially, I think the real problem is that you want to freshen up how team battling feels as an experience and are assuming this is the problem that holds it back, when in reality we're rather clique-y and to abolish this entirely would possibly make things even worse. If anything, what you might consider doing is trying to be creative with how team battles go. If it's competitive every time, of course it's going to get boring. Go for fun fights.
berly you have been away for a long time from teams, but allot of the people are on the same teams, we even call some teams now sub teams because they literally have the same members just a different name and leader, from that point of view we are not losing anything other then a teams second name since those people will still be on the same team. right now we cant really say let the leaders solve the problems since you get one teams multi members which gets it in there favor. while the community themselves spoke. so far i see people like asaka who never even had an account and gone form most of area for years come on and vote because she was told vote. as for roster caps like most things we can control that but teams themselves even my members when we grow allot move on try to make there own teams or join others.
yes drama we know enough. but if allot of things change for some peoples favor cant they change for the ohers favor to especially when its a vote ?
and we try but most people have there mind set. multi team comes from those who cant keep there own teams up asking for help. it didnt used to be a big problem in the past since it was small and yes it got out of hand. but lets face it limits in one month like the rules for the drama chat will change or be completely erased. voting to limit it is almost the same as voting no since people will simple create rules to exploit or break and erase em. and those that now see that they are on the less favored side want to compromise because they are indeed fearing for there own gain. i believe that in time as i see so many people that dont even cardfight on area anymore come vote for limited it might pass yes because there is no set date for this .
but the immediate the people that are on here daily spoke and they said yes stop this yes it is a problem, and the people with multi teams agree multi and single have the same positives and if that is so then why is it a problem to remove multi and double when people agree double is more porblematic and has more problems and negatives ?
i know with the majority of people in power the dont want to bring a change here they wont stop it they will just keep arguing like a superman vs goku argument even if you lay proof down infront of em because they wont want to be in the wrong or lose and if a change is brought it will be short because like many showed there not willing to work for it and rather go the easy root even if there own past and present proofed that it isnt working.
Mate, I was one of the first people to lose a team because I went ahead and double-teamed assuming it was fine because I watched others do it. Sirvat kicked me, and he had full right to do it, and I was fine with it because it was his choice. I then proceeded to watch that team combine with Team Asteroid's roster, along with a few other satellite teams that came up. "Sister" teams is the common terminology for this type of organization, which is why I went with it over "sub" teams. I'm fully aware of what's been going on; just because I don't post doesn't mean I don't shadow this community in a number of ways, including through friends that still interact with it to some degree.
I agree in the sentiment that people will eventually gain enough of a sense to make their own teams with people from that old team for the sake of having that team separate and being their own entity, but I haven't seen that as of late because teams keep sharing their members. It's kind of why I agree with the substitute proposal Angel made more than an outright ban, because it does let teams have fallbacks if people have other commitments, but it doesn't allow teams to straight up be subsidiaries of the same organization, because that's a load of bullshit.
It confounds me how this comes back to mods, in any shape or form. If you think, or even know, that what you guys want to do is abolish it, why does a moderator have to validate it? You can come to a silent agreement amongst leaders, or a certain group of leaders if not all agree, post the rule as a part of your team rules, and basically call it a day. Why'd we have to go through all these pages, back and forth, suddenly seeing shit like "oh well this is going to get blocked anyway when the community wants it but the mods dont." The results you have, even if they're not universally agreed on, are enough for you guys to act on your own.
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condolance for your team i heard about some of it.
but angels proposal is basically multi team with extra steps allowing those people to still do what they are doing now and probably best you see droids post for his counter.
in the end angels solution is one extreamly flawed one.
we still need the mods help to do some things since they are they always state are the law on here and have the power to atleast back us up when a team is breaking the rules and inforce it or they get a consequence since not everyone will follow this. in the past we had no solid written rule about this but now its so big even sirvat decided to make a post on it.
another problem is most of the leaders are on one single team so one team can have 5 leaders vote for em while single team only has one thats pretty out of balance.
i would go for limitation rules but on here limitations seem to always disappears when it inconveniences someone who has the power to change it or someone close to change it.
in the end i already knew that the ones that can help and make this change possible are against it and wont help.
it would be so awesome if those themselves that are on mutliple teams just stop right now if they wanna double team then be on only two teams and hold to your convictions. if those leaders are your friends they will understand. if a team is big and another is smaller they will probably be a bit upset at first but it will work out.
and to the leaders i say try to be a bit different try to work for your team.
all in all im proud of this community stepping up and speaking there minds on this so there will be a time on its own multi teaming will mostly likely die out again. but for now this is what it is.
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I now find this debate pointless because i highly doubt it is encouraging people to vote for something else and its starting to have nothing to do with point of double teaming ._.
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Oh boy, the irony is so much in this thread that it's unreal; I'm not taking shots but since we're stating facts let me state some as well, Sirvat weren't you and Ate the one's who started all this 'sub' issue to begin with? You had your team on a no double team rule yet kept 'subbing' for TA even though everyone knew you are part of the team. Sometimes you 'subbed' as Sirvat or sometimes you played as NTA Birth, what exactly prevents others from not doing the same? I can be in multiple teams under different names, woop good job guys nothing really changed. Multi-teaming is ridiculous sure, more then 2 teams is just overboard, limit them to 2 I agree with that. "The issue of fight same players every TB." Stems up from multi-team and subs not Double Teaming. You won't fight the same members if the members are limited to 2 teams instead of being in 5 teams.
I used to be anti-double teaming, I always stuck with one team. TCC, AE, RS, NeoGen then Mu's. Even in Mu's I've joined uh, VS because of shockwave but I don't really do anything there since I can't understand crap there. I joined NR because it was heartwarming to see AE back in another form and I missed my friends so for the purpose of having fun and chatting. I couldn't care less if teams were limited to 1 since in terms of TB I only care about my main team anyway but that's looking at it from my point of view and that's a self-centered approach.
Why do people double team? Very simple, people have lives and teams aren't always active. Mu's is pretty active, we barely TB yet get 3k messages a day, but the thing is some people love to TB, suppose our team isn't in the mood to TB like we weren't at January/February month(s). If they have another team they can play with or satisfy their needs then they can be happy on both teams as opposed to: "Man this team doesn't vanguard much anymore other team like TA seems super active and they TB 10 times a day, I wanna join them so I guess I'll leave this team!" That's stupid. People double team because teams can't always be active and if they are, not every team can be. Yes, yes, Radiant Tales is the best and we should follow their example, strive to be like them etc. but people have lives and have things like: College, Work, etc and better things then a side hobby like online Vanguard who's team battles take an hour or even longer. Point is, not every team can be active so double team makes people happy to play at different time zones and what not.
By all means go ahead and ban subbing and more then 2 teams, Go for it. That's a good step, if you guys wanna ban 2 teams I couldn't care less but at the end of the day it's all just
(https://31.media.tumblr.com/5a29f694f67a145ca39d44e34e17e7ea/tumblr_no0we7Cd7e1qet0cro1_540.gif)
Big words to look smart and no result, this is a debate that'll go on until people are bored and has 0 result from it. At the end of the day you can say 20 philosophical things to look deep or write 3 essay paragraphs like Devour to sound smart but it brings no result(which I ended up doing). Although my reason to write this big paragraph was so I can just post this or else Cherry will ban me
TL;DR
(http://i.imgur.com/4dGYN0u.png)
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Im not really able to write a whole lot at the moment, but you are entirely confused if you think me and Ate started this no offence. I agree to doing it but I don't agree with it now because of the different reasons stated above. At this point you all should be trying to come to agreement on ways in which we can change, ban, or limit double teaming.
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Wow this got popular.
Let's set aside for a second, the ability to run your team however you want to. And let's focus on a few things. Firstly, time zones, as much as I'd LOVE to have everyone on my team be able to be on the same exact time I am, some are from the UK, some are from different parts of the country and so I sadly can't expect them to be on all the time, so I could see why in that case they would want to join another team whose timeline matches up more with there's. Not to mention the fact that there are various circumstances and variables we can't really factor in due to some of those being of the personal nature. I am personally okay with it, as long as they are able to A) be active and B) assure me that if the problem ever came around where one of their 'other' teams were fighting with 'my' team, that they'd choose my team unless I had someone who was able to take their spot, given prior notice, etc.
To summarize, if their leader is okay with double teaming, then it's fine. If they aren't, they should put it in their rules and run their team in 'that' way.
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To contribute to the posts. Lulz
MoeMoe/Ciel said my opinion for me. -Slow Claps- to each their own, no use trying to abolish free will, etc etc, insert snappy comeback point here, yadah yadah, pay attention to your peers over the hype of the small part of the 200+ community.
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If the majority of people agree, then what would you do, would you just kick the people who are on more than 2 teams currently or would you pressure them into making a decision between which teams to stay on? If it was from scratch I wouldn't see any problems but at this stage, most people who are on more than 2 teams would've bonded with their members so it'll be unfair to strip them of their friends from different teams because they're only restricted to join 2 teams. Not that I'm against the double teaming rule, in fact I'm for it since I'm currently only on 2 teams but if the solution were to kick members, wouldn't it be unfair for them? Also an interesting thing is if majority of the teams were to agree with the double teaming rule, then that sort of automatically solves it since for example if member A was on team X, Y and Z, if team X and Y decided to implement the rule then they would have to choose 2/3 of the teams anyways regardless if Z implements it or not. Though the problem would be if the majority doesn't agree/neutral then the member could for example be on all 5 of the teams that did not agree. Though to be honest I don't really expect there to be much change you can do at this stage so...
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If the majority of people agree, then what would you do, would you just kick the people who are on more than 2 teams currently or would you pressure them into making a decision between which teams to stay on? If it was from scratch I wouldn't see any problems but at this stage, most people who are on more than 2 teams would've bonded with their members so it'll be unfair to strip them of their friends from different teams because they're only restricted to join 2 teams. Not that I'm against the double teaming rule, in fact I'm for it since I'm currently only on 2 teams but if the solution were to kick members, wouldn't it be unfair for them? Also an interesting thing is if majority of the teams were to agree with the double teaming rule, then that sort of automatically solves it since for example if member A was on team X, Y and Z, if team X and Y decided to implement the rule then they would have to choose 2/3 of the teams anyways regardless if Z implements it or not. Though the problem would be if the majority doesn't agree/neutral then the member could for example be on all 5 of the teams that did not agree. Though to be honest I don't really expect there to be much change you can do at this stage so...
It's why I said to limit to 2 teams you can play in. Extra teams you can probably just get permission to stay in the skype group; just not play for them. Almost the same without killing team diversity.
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It should be banned it's like playing for Barcelona and Real Madrid at the same damn time but i can see people already disagreeing to that and i personnally don't care, it serves no purposes and if you wanna be in multiple team just try to focus in one first, you'll find more to do than you think.
Call me Elitist, narrow minded or whatever u want but that's how i feel about multi teaming, IT'S JUST A GODDAMN GARBAGE THING to do and to allow, in Team league u can't play for two team right? why should we here, it's like the Double Mulligan rule, garbage all the same, Vanguard states single mulligan so for me double mulligan isn't even playing vanguard anymore becauses it's the basic rules of the game.
On that i'm gone, say whatever u want, i won't answer anyway, it's not about being dictator but true to one team and your engagement for that team. I personnally played for many teams but never two at the same time at last and i'm proud of that fact.
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Should be banned really, or limited. I don't care if someone joined 2 teams, it's just annoying when it comes to events. If you're going to be double teaming either don't do it or actually state in your name your primary team that you will fight for.
No really, double teaming should be banned.
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I agree with most everyone that this Multi-teaming is getting way out of hand. I think a person should only be on one team, two at max. I can understand if people want to be on two teams because a lot of the teams are diverse in many ways. But if you were to be on two teams, you need to imput time to each team equally as a fault of giving equal service leads to some bad endings. Now one of the coments really stood out to me which was said by Ryuji. He said that the community is too small and there should be no double teaming. Well my response is that if the community is small, then cut down on the number of teams in area. Its like 20% of the teams are the same team but with a different name.
Now also by the 100+ replies in about 24hrs, we can see this is a real prevalent topic to bring up. Now i am not going to read through all those replies so im sorry if i have repeated anyone else.
But back to the topic. I once had this old leader (no names) who was a very great leader. The person spent tons of time with the team and we were all very greatful. But then this leader slowly started to participate more activly in another team. And then it went downhill from there. Point is if you are the leader of the team, isnt it logical to help fortify your team and your team only and not going to completely switch to another team?
Anyway, my opinion is that a person should be limited to two teams max and needs to participate equally in both teams.
And nice job Sirvat, this topic is definitely one which needed to be discussed.
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To be completely honest, I think double teaming should be banned. Like others before me have said, some of us don't want to be cardfighting the same people over and over again. It can be pretty repetitive at times. I also think that if it were to be banned or limited, it would result in more teams forming which could mean more tournaments and more opportunities to get better. Also, sometimes loyalty to a team can be an issue. Let's say I am on 2 teams and they're both having a tb and I am the only person they need to team battle, it can be conflicting to choose 1 team over the other which is personally one of the reasons I don't like to double team. Overall, I just feel that it's the team leader's decision on whether to ban double teaming or not.
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This wouldn't be a problem if we initiated some of the spawn noobs into our community. Personally, I will start inviting them to join the team scene
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It's been 30 minutes and I have already gotten two new players to start their training and become interested in joining teams. It's really not that hard.
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i applause you heavens you dont just preach you practice.
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Maybe we could allow for double teaming to still exist but the players that would be double teaming in question would be act as a sort of mentor towards these new players who have recently come into the team battle scene. Sure it may not seem like a great idea at first, but it will help those in the long run on how to manage a team more appropriately. A little guidance wouldn't hurt now will it.
Another thing to consider, even if double teaming is banned, there's always subbing. Thus it would be pointless to banned double teaming as players would still play for other teams. That's why I think that striking a balance would be more appropriate. And just minimizing the amount would do us better I suppose.
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Maybe we could allow for double teaming to still exist but the players that would be double teaming in question would be act as a sort of mentor towards these new players who have recently come into the team battle scene. Sure it may not seem like a great idea at first, but it will help those in the long run on how to manage a team more appropriately. A little guidance wouldn't hurt now will it.
Another thing to consider, even if double teaming is banned, there's always subbing. Thus it would be pointless to banned double teaming as players would still play for other teams. That's why I think that striking a balance would be more appropriate. And just minimizing the amount would do us better I suppose.
so you want the old player to double not the new ?
still i myself helped guide a few teams without being a part of there teams helping them. so your idea does sound a bit backwards to me since if you said new players should double that is more understandable.
all in all double teaming is not needed to guide a player since the best experience comes from the actions you take on your own as a leader.
subbing and mutli teaming are basically the same thing now its why in the past post we said ban all of it since we hear this or that person is not an official members but fights for the team every day even when people that are only on that team asks if they can tb they hear a no the sub came first, and even if it is banned it wont really solve the problem to completion just lessen it a whole lot, and we go for limited it would be the same as voting no since the limit can be what ever the ones that like multi teamers feels they need from 2-20000.
all in all we asks whats better for the community ?
a, teams that go out try to bring in fresh new faces, spend a few months about 6 training em learning new things changing the meta a bit because these guys there new they change us we change em and at the end of the year we got a booming new community, maybe a few people change there names to be on more then one team but most say nah to much work, and multi teaming is looked down on.
or b, we stay at a point where mutli teams are fighting over members, the only look for membmers from other multi teams, we get a few more teams that are basically the clones of already existing clones of already existing teams, same members, different names and a different leader, who will complain certain people wont play and players who complain they are not allowed to have a chance because they are considered not winners, and mono teams are considered elitist for not allowing multi team.
side note.
i do see allot of votes to limit and allot of people speaking of bringing it down to double team but i still see almost no one actually making the change themselves, only waiting for be forced.
i do have respects for some people including heavens who as of yesterday recruited the most members i have ever seen a team recruit in one day since pss.
applause to you big guy.
you want a change peeps, you be the change you want.
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@Moe
"Big words to look smart and no result, this is a debate that'll go on until people are bored and has 0 result from it. At the end of the day you can say 20 philosophical things to look deep or write 3 essay paragraphs like Devour to sound smart but it brings no result(which I ended up doing). Although my reason to write this big paragraph was so I can just post this or else Cherry will ban me"
That's actually the thing that needs to be addressed first before I go on with everything else. I do not believe anyone that replied in this thread,stated his arguments and opinions just to look smart. Whether or not they agree or disagree with the ban or limit of double teaming, opinions should be respected,and given the proper attention. Presenting solid arguments in very comprehensive language is not "trying to sound smart" or "saying philosophical things to look deep", you or anyone else have no right to classify solid and comprehensive arguments as "things to sound smart" or "things to look deep", that simply shows that you are not giving the community's opinion the proper respect. Also, this is a debate that does give results, as shown by both the poll results and the attention this post has, this post does have an impact to the community. Whether or not this post has results however is not up to the community only but on whether or not the mods actually notice the community's opinions and act accordingly.
"Sometimes you 'subbed' as Sirvat or sometimes you played as NTA Birth, what exactly prevents others from not doing the same? I can be in multiple teams under different names, woop good job guys nothing really changed. Multi-teaming is ridiculous sure, more then 2 teams is just overboard, limit them to 2 I agree with that. "The issue of fight same players every TB." Stems up from multi-team and subs not Double Teaming. You won't fight the same members if the members are limited to 2 teams instead of being in 5 teams."
The subbing with 2 different names issue is simply done because of CFA's terrible account system, simply tying each account to 1 email should easily solve this issue without pretty much costing anything more than a few lines of code.
For the multi team issue, Multi teaming and subbing is pretty much the same thing, if one goes away so should the other.
The reason I'm opposed to double teaming as well isn't only because of the "fighting the same people in every TB" issue, my main reason for being in favor of the double teaming(and subbing) ban is mainly because it's not healthy for the team system in general, as you may have noticed area's team system is not exactly optimal for new players to start, and it's easily exploitable to the point it can cause plenty of drama issues between teams, leading to a lot of teams just collapsing from drama issues. Many teams are reworked, reformed and disbanding, and part of the reason is how the multi team system works, with double team it will pretty much be the same but to a lesser extent.
While the ban doesn't please everyone, it is actually the most optimal solution at this point in time, the team system is breaking apart as we speak and many other teams will end up collapsing if we don't do something. As moderators you have to take action, responding to the community's opinions and try to balance out the team system before it completely collapses on itself.
"Why do people double team? Very simple, people have lives and teams aren't always active. Mu's is pretty active, we barely TB yet get 3k messages a day, but the thing is some people love to TB, suppose our team isn't in the mood to TB like we weren't at January/February month(s). If they have another team they can play with or satisfy their needs then they can be happy on both teams as opposed to: "Man this team doesn't vanguard much anymore other team like TA seems super active and they TB 10 times a day, I wanna join them so I guess I'll leave this team!" That's stupid. People double team because teams can't always be active and if they are, not every team can be. Yes, yes, Radiant Tales is the best and we should follow their example, strive to be like them etc. but people have lives and have things like: College, Work, etc and better things then a side hobby like online Vanguard who's team battles take an hour or even longer. Point is, not every team can be active so double team makes people happy to play at different time zones and what not."
I hope you are not forgetting that we are talking about the cardfight area team system here, team battles are a solid part of it, there is literally no point in making and area team if you do not open the game and play as one, if you wanna chat with your friends that's what the community chats are for, and if a team reaches the point where it is just a community chat and nothing else, then it has nothing more to give to the team system anymore. We have people in different time zones too, we have lives too, but we also strive to make our team active and fun for all it's members, we keep the roster at a certain cap, we are kicking fighters who are inactive for very long periods of time unless they tell us beforehand that they have to get inactive because of certain IRL issues, and most importantly we do not allow our members to multi team or sub.Sacrifices must be made in order for a system to work properly and the ban of double teaming is a necessary step to that, our members are not bothered in the slightest about those rules, not only that, we are actually one of the most chill and fun teams area has at the moment. My point is, the team system must, above all, be a solid and stable system that can sustain itself, and everyone can play in, it must be functional in game and avoid drama issues between teams, and for that rules are necessary, don't expect this chaotic mayhem of a team system we have now to work for too long,most people realize that now, and if you mods don't care enough to help with that then just let those who care enough help instead.
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one thing droid did sadly miss to mention with all do respect just feel i got the words
is that there will always be drama,
yes there will be team drama members drama life drama all kinds of drama.
but even so with no more multi or double there will be less of a kind of drama and even if like i stated in the post above people change there names it will be hard work for em and as shown with certain posts on here most are not willing to putt in the work.
even so if you ban multi teaming if you go mono people will bond together not out of fear or no option but out of genuin desire to rise a strong team up, build interesting decks to keep up with there team mates. challenge teams they where told are elitists or sobs and all around they will try to communicate with others and since being on a different team means you arnt able to spend allot of time together outside of different group chats teams will again do events with one another.
because its really weird no teams but mine are doing events lately.
no seriously guys stop waiting for someone to do a tournament just shia lebuff this.
want change in area ? be the change.
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@ Jai
Yes, there will always be drama in any sort of community, however it is essential for any community system(including the area team system) to stop the drama from spreading on other teams as well, banning multi teaming will stop most drama issues from transferring to other teams and therefore reduce the overall impact the drama moment will have on the system itself.
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even so this pole shows how small our community is since only 68 people out of probably hundreds of thousands signed up to this forum voted.
this shows that the main players who are on cfa almost daily weather it is fighting or just hanging out already voted and they already showed what they feel for this topic.
i say from here on we are pretty much done with this tread since probably every opinion has been giving do i do suggest keep it open for those that feel they want to still give there side as to for and or again being on one team or being on more teams.
once again i thank everyone who voted and even happier that around halve or area agree multi teaming must be stopped even more then limited and definately more then no.
now the question is, what do we do from here ?
nothing and keep tihngs as is ?
or become the change we want ?
want change ? be change !
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You know what would be nice.... actually coming to a compromise or agreement. Yes its true, some people are 100% against double teaming (I mean I did flip my shit that time when hope decided to make two idol teams, but then again maybe that was just because I hate Love Live and similar stuff but I digress.) There are also some who are 100% for double teaming, thinking it doesn't really have an impact and we have some people in-between.
So why not make a compromise... or at least try to since from what I can see at this point its slowly devolving into a full on hate festival over here.
I mean like a simple solution is just to have most or all teams keep an up-to-date members list and then let the other teams decide if they want to act on a double teaming person and kick them out of their team if they so desire or have a hatred against double teaming. Or you could just put a limit on a number of teams a single person is allowed to join or such. (E.g like 2 maximum)
Also even if you somehow get it banned, you have a major flaw which is Implementation and Enforcement because one person cannot force or impose their ban onto another team, after all its their team not yours. And even if it gets implemented, its team leaders who will enforce and their is not going be a punishment for breaking the rule.
Just would like to note, the main part of the post, which is the last paragraph is the most important part to think about, since I bet most of those pro to the ban have not even thought up a solution to even Implement the ban on every other team then enforce it... because its practically impossible, especially considering you cannot punish anyone for breaking the rules, not even mods or admins can, since its Free Will and that is something you cannot suppress no matter how hard you try.
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@Spider
"Just would like to note, the main part of the post, which is the last paragraph is the most important part to think about, since I bet most of those pro to the ban have not even thought up a solution to even Implement the ban on every other team then enforce it... because its practically impossible, especially considering you cannot punish anyone for breaking the rules, not even mods or admins can, since its Free Will and that is something you cannot suppress no matter how hard you try"
Actually, the implementation and enforcement of than ban is much easier than you think it is, and here is one of the ways you can go for it:
1) Tying Each account to a single email to prevent people from making multiple accounts and changing names (since area actually implemented an account system a few more lines of code shouldn't be a problem).
2)Report System: A forum thread where reports of that or similar rule violations are listed, if a person violates the multi team rule, then any other number of players that were watching or playing in the team battle are free to report them.
3)Recruiting in-game people that investigate such issues: If multiple reports had been filed, the mods send one of those people to investigate the issue in secret, if the suspicions turn out to be correct then we can implement forum or in game restrictions(like sleeve reset) based on the seriousness of said rule violation.
and there you go, a system where any sort of rule can be implemented and enforced, of course doing that takes a bit of time, but solidifying a system like that is going to make things way easier to implement any sort of in game rule changes that need to be done in the future as well.
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Let me clarify that i've not read all the comments on this thread, so i might be repeating some things. (and i hope i am to be honest.)
I just wanna say a couple of words cause this apparently have taken inadequate proportions.
First of all lets remember that "Teaming" is a community thing people created to give CFA a sense of immersion and competition, which the game lacks by itself. Everyone is free to make a team or apply for an existing one, just need to follow the forum rules and all that stuff everyone problaby knows...
The big problem here is that people are lacking some common sense, think a little:
-If we created teams to group up with some friends and fight others. Whats the fun of fighting agaisnt our own teammates? We tested decks, discussed some plays, so that in the end he fights for another team agaisnt me?
-If someone quit my team to join another one, he cant be my friend anymore? We should never talk again? In fact, shall i hate him for leaving?
If those questions didnt sound dumb to you, stop for a moment and think, why do you have a team? Or why do you care about TB's? If you think there's nothing wrong with "double teaming", stop tbing and just ask around for 5 other people, split you all in 2 groups and do a TB, cause nowadays that's sorta whats happening. (dont think i'm talking to everyone that's on a team, i'm not stupid, i know a fair amount of you dont double team)
Now, how many people on any other game do you see double teaming? (dont point that single person in the whole universe that did that one time, we are looking at the overall)
I could ask tons logical questions here but the po-
"But Dhan, what if i have friends that are on different teams? what should i do if i wanna play with all of them at the same time?" - Random player.
First of all if you wanna have all of your friends with you, make a fucking team and invite them. If you wanna dream about your happy little world where all of your friends hold hands and play VG together, well, you don't need a team for that. In fact, the team thread shouldnt be about that, we join teams to have rivals and goals, or at least we should, otherwise its just pointless, ask to join a skype chat room and there you go.
Idk if i made myself clear, so, just to be sure:
YOU CAN STILL PLAY WITH YOUR FRIENDS EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT ON THE SAME TEAM. Shocking isnt it?
But sure, lets kill all the purpose of having teams letting people be on more than one at the same time, why not?
"Cmon Dhan, beein on 2 teams its fine, the problem is multi-teaming..." - Random player.
Nope, thats not fine cause there are no f-ing reasons to be on more than one team. Where did those moments of people trying to keep a player or people going all hyped about fighting THAT team went? (Did that ever happened tbh? i mean, it should but...)
Most important, where did the team bounds went? (you really want me to believe you are all friends with everyone in your team?....do you know everyone in your team? o.0)
Dont get me confused when i say we shall bring the competition back:
-I don't support thirsty win hunters that use meta decks just to increase win/lose ratio, you should keep playing VG with the clan you like, the way you like, but i think its more fun to do it with some friends by your side and its more interesting to have a goal to practice.
-I don't think its fine to judge a team by they win rate, thats more than pointless, especially in VG.
All i'm saying is that if you are double teaming, or if you allow people to do that on your team, you are the reason that the community is dying. Sorry, it's true. As much as people complain about "salt", that's what runs the world, for real, think about it, not that salt of bitching about a loss, but the salt of losing. Theres no sense of accomplishment and frustation on the teams nowadays. (and please, dont go all drama queen attention whore just cause you got sacked, welcome to VG, you WILL lose eventually)
Its up to everyone if they wanna keep doing this no sense stuff, or if they really wanna bring the team hype back. And dont get me wrong, double teaming is not the only problem when it comes to teams, the amount of players in a team, the TB manners and a lot other things should come in discussion. But there's no point if the team thread is just a group of people that like to do 3v3's.
Let me just end this by saying that i don't hate you for double-teaming, so don't hate me for pointing a fact.
And i'm also not asking for a revolution, even tho it would be nice, do what you like, but do it consciously.
(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140511142352/desencyclopedie/images/7/7f/Sainte-Patate.jpg)
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Let me clarify that i've not read all the comments on this thread, so i might be repeating some things. (and i hope i am to be honest.)
I just wanna say a couple of words cause this apparently have taken inadequate proportions.
First of all lets remember that "Teaming" is a community thing people created to give CFA a sense of immersion and competition, which the game lacks by itself. Everyone is free to make a team or apply for an existing one, just need to follow the forum rules and all that stuff everyone problaby knows...
The big problem here is that people are lacking some common sense, think a little:
-If we created teams to group up with some friends and fight others. Whats the fun of fighting agaisnt our own teammates? We tested decks, discussed some plays, so that in the end he fights for another team agaisnt me?
-If someone quit my team to join another one, he cant be my friend anymore? We should never talk again? In fact, shall i hate him for leaving?
If those questions didnt sound dumb to you, stop for a moment and think, why do you have a team? Or why do you care about TB's? If you think there's nothing wrong with "double teaming", stop tbing and just ask around for 5 other people, split you all in 2 groups and do a TB, cause nowadays that's sorta whats happening. (dont think i'm talking to everyone that's on a team, i'm not stupid, i know a fair amount of you dont double team)
Now, how many people on any other game do you see double teaming? (dont point that single person in the whole universe that did that one time, we are looking at the overall)
I could ask tons logical questions here but the po-
"But Dhan, what if i have friends that are on different teams? what should i do if i wanna play with all of them at the same time?" - Random player.
First of all if you wanna have all of your friends with you, make a fucking team and invite them. If you wanna dream about your happy little world where all of your friends hold hands and play VG together, well, you don't need a team for that. In fact, the team thread shouldnt be about that, we join teams to have rivals and goals, or at least we should, otherwise its just pointless, ask to join a skype chat room and there you go.
Idk if i made myself clear, so, just to be sure:
YOU CAN STILL PLAY WITH YOUR FRIENDS EVEN IF YOU ARE NOT ON THE SAME TEAM. Shocking isnt it?
But sure, lets kill all the purpose of having teams letting people be on more than one at the same time, why not?
"Cmon Dhan, beein on 2 teams its fine, the problem is multi-teaming..." - Random player.
Nope, thats not fine cause there are no f-ing reasons to be on more than one team. Where did those moments of people trying to keep a player or people going all hyped about fighting THAT team went? (Did that ever happened tbh? i mean, it should but...)
Most important, where did the team bounds went? (you really want me to believe you are all friends with everyone in your team?....do you know everyone in your team? o.0)
Dont get me confused when i say we shall bring the competition back:
-I don't support thirsty win hunters that use meta decks just to increase win/lose ratio, you should keep playing VG with the clan you like, the way you like, but i think its more fun to do it with some friends by your side and its more interesting to have a goal to practice.
-I don't think its fine to judge a team by they win rate, thats more than pointless, especially in VG.
All i'm saying is that if you are double teaming, or if you allow people to do that on your team, you are the reason that the community is dying. Sorry, it's true. As much as people complain about "salt", that's what runs the world, for real, think about it, not that salt of bitching about a loss, but the salt of losing. Theres no sense of accomplishment and frustation on the teams nowadays. (and please, dont go all drama queen attention whore just cause you got sacked, welcome to VG, you WILL lose eventually)
Its up to everyone if they wanna keep doing this no sense stuff, or if they really wanna bring the team hype back. And dont get me wrong, double teaming is not the only problem when it comes to teams, the amount of players in a team, the TB manners and a lot other things should come in discussion. But there's no point if the team thread is just a group of people that like to do 3v3's.
Let me just end this by saying that i don't hate you for double-teaming, so don't hate me for pointing a fact.
And i'm also not asking for a revolution, even tho it would be nice, do what you like, but do it consciously.
(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140511142352/desencyclopedie/images/7/7f/Sainte-Patate.jpg)
Bless you my friend for stating some undeniable truths, double/multi teaming is wrong in so many ways, thank you for posting, and read my replies to this post when you have the time. Once again props to you. :)
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Ryuji... Please shut up, you are not adding to the debate or "Clusterf*ck" in the slightest. I doubt you have had leader experience in the slightest (and well some people here also haven't but I digress) so if you got nothing important to add, do not post.
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@dhan
i say the problem is more that some people are just lazy to get new members.
@ryuji
well i see allot of people that kind of said they quit area come to vote
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Ryuji... Please shut up, you are not adding to the debate or "Clusterf*ck" in the slightest. I doubt you have had leader experience in the slightest (and well some people here also haven't but I digress) so if you got nothing important to add, do not post.
Spider... Please shut up, you are not adding to the debate or "Clusterf*ck" in the slightest. I doubt you have had leader experience in the slightest (and well some people here also haven't but I digress) so if you got nothing important to add, do not post. You arent a Mod so know your place.
But I still have team leader experience so... yeah point invalid mate, also for all we know those new account being made could have voted on limiting double teaming or putting it flat out no. Also I'm a Hypocrite and have actually added important things to this debate like how do they even plan to implement the ban or enforce it
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It died about.... a year ago because I disbanded it because most of the members became inactive. So yeah, it may not have been an Area team but it was still a team non-the less, so if your just trying to poke at a dead corpse be my guest ryuji, be My guest.
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Riiiiiight... So guess your leadership wasnt the best huh :v, so like 'u' said before...Please shut up, you are not adding to the debate or "Clusterf*ck" in the slightest. I doubt you have had *Good* leader experience in the slightest (and well some people here also haven't but I digress) so if you got nothing important to add, do not post. You arent a Mod so know your place.
-deleted all messages b4 this to prevent spam-
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I think mostly everyone here in our community has basically stated there viewpoint, and voted on this matter. As stated above its pretty much up to you all, so I will be locking this topic.