Double Teaming

[Jai Hearts]

@angel

its not that simple, what you implied is basically whats happening and you cant simple call a tb off and solve the problem since it will still have the problem. we cant always just turn away and say "nope we wont do it" since it will be spread around allot of teams and people will just see it as the norm like multi teaming is.

@zane

pro double teaming

you say it isolated most teams and cause conflicts, but i see mutli teaming is such a big conflict this tread was made. does that not imply that multi teaming and double teaming will not cause its conflicts ? in allot of chats i see that the conflict is with 2 teams most of the time, two very big teams even constantly at odds with one another that even the leader left it for a time. and what teams would you call struggling and how many members should double for it ? every all till one team is more active then the other, one again causing one leader to be unhappy and take shots that his members are being taken ? i can see this work out especially with certain people but what is a struggling team ? someone with 20 members and maybe only 5 are active right now ? but they have 20 members does this mean they need your members too ? like droid said allot can be twisted in these rules to suit a team, even divine souls reformed and dissbanded twice if i remember correctly with the second team losing allot of members to teams they where on as a second team. so double teaming wont always help and can infact bring one down.

growing in double: again this was first stated i think by mythos that in double team you grow more and make more friends, but i just proved that it is possible to do this on regular none multi teams. infact it could be proven that you grow more and make more friends on none multi teaming teams since you dont stay in the two teams community or the multi teaming circle. i barely see multi teams take in new people these days with maybe one team taking one every 2 months. so it is possible to grow with both but being on single team allows you to make friends with people learn from em and you feel like you wanna fight em more cuzz you still havent seen all there skills and abilities. so yea it can work with both sides but with single the teams will learn to coopirate and work more together.

toxic:
zane even with multi teaming insolation and narrowmindedness maybe more evidant now as i realise we have gone full circle since pro double teams say this is possible, pro single say it is still possible even without double without the drama of people complaining members are not fighting for em. not to mention again that double/multi teams do not want to recruit new people as we are now a small community and incest among teams will only deteriorate us more. you say single team has these problems but i see that mutli teams are the ones carrying it.

you said you left a team to help another out. you helped started a team no shame in that, and if you left a team why did you ? because the new team is your friend ?
so want your cake and eat it too ?
but youre there own both teams, if youre there but youre on one more then the other, your helping one more trying to be on both sides. its like being with two lovers, man that must be exausting. your main comment says it helps struggling teams but why do they need help so far ? shouldnt that atleast try to look for members ? is the struggling lack of members or lack of strong members ? how much members does a struggling team need to have to be considered struggling ? how many months weeks days does it need to count as struggling ?

it just sounds like you want as many tbs as possible not train make friends or have matches. from all i see mutli teaming only has one upside and thats mutli/double teamers get to tb more. so you cant fight a regular fight ? you cant train with someone ? tb is the must the absolution ? then if tbs all you are after all youre thinking is how many tbs you can get not how you can help a team.

 

[Jai Hearts]

Let me start with the main point, people respond to incentives.

Of course, an outright ban has no incentives for both members and leaders unless they support it. People get nothing from following it, and thus can ignore it completely (Think of the U.S Prohibition Era for those of you who know history). In which case that puts in question how this whole shenanigan will be enforced as mentioned before. Whatever the result here is, there are many other holes in our team battling system such as the lack of any system to mandate honest and consistent reporting, or any central power to organize teams at all. If we are to bring attention to a problem, then we should address the other issues at hand.

It is like beating a dead horse, but the hope that this can give an understanding that an outright ban is too much work, idealistic even. If a ban could fix the problem, then why not fix other problems as well and create the ideal system?

Well, because banning isn't actually a quick fix, and an ideal system is much harder to achieve. People aren't just going to listen to a central power in a small group like this.

Double Teaming is NOT killing the "community," we are pointing our fingers at an issue that would not be a problem should we have a larger player base.

Lets say we have a bag of 5 marbles with 1 red marble inside. The activity is that you pull out a random marble and throw it back in. You are very likely to constantly pull the red marble. That's because there's  not that many marbles. Increase the count to 10, now we have 1/10 chances. You're seeing this red marble less. Then you amp it up to 50, then even 100. At this point it reduces itself to a 1/100 chance, only a 1 percent chance to come across this same marble which you constantly crossed before, just because you increased the quantity of the pool.

The best solution to this is not going for a ban that forces people to act. People respond to incentives. Its not a big bang word with blurred lines and meanings like "bonds," and not any sort of vague assumption on why and what we do in teams. We are people, and we have individuality. This is apparent by how everyone brings in personal testimony more than anything else. Its all different, and in no way are any of them wrong. Trying to find a point of convergence and agreement from there just isn't going to happen.

We have to attract new members and encourage new members into entering our team battling scene. Now understand that not everyone is constantly involved in this. We have players who slip in and out, those who only see this as an occasional activity to unwind and play Vanguard. Whatever the case may be, we just need more people.

Think of the movie Cars, with Radiator Springs and how they needed to attract people as they were in danger, literally becoming wiped off the map. The solution there was to make the place more attractive and more welcoming, to open up more.

Give incentives for people and make them want to stay. That way we have a larger environment as a whole. With a growing environment, we can get an exponentially growing community once again as we did before.

...but with a rise comes a fall, and may we rise again as we did before.

Thank you for this post and thank you all as this has awakened a lot of those who have had dormant thoughts and opinions and has given the opportunity for them to be expressed.

An action which brings people here and draws out their passions, is in itself a reason to be here.

allow me to speak with the kiddy cloves off

so basically youre against it and you have power so youre losing that means you will shut this down even do there was votes and a majority agreed to ban it. but again you are in favor of it you have power so screw the small guys you win no matter what ?

damn hope this is like the new rep chat rules and no person one can have two team pages again. the people spoke and said they dont want it, in the past for what you guys are pro with you helped and voted and won. but now that this is actually something many are against you just said you wont dare change a thing even if people want to try it, want to see what comes out the other tunnel but you wont dare risk it because its not in your favor.

i have trully small fate in allot of people in the forum because they look out for themselves not the community or the game and even do we spoke and people see that only good thing about double/multi is more tbs nothing else it has more negatives then positives you wanna just ignore it because it doesnt suit you.

well guess thats that boys and girls going back to the original plan.

[Hope]

Let me start with the main point, people respond to incentives.

Of course, an outright ban has no incentives for both members and leaders unless they support it. People get nothing from following it, and thus can ignore it completely (Think of the U.S Prohibition Era for those of you who know history). In which case that puts in question how this whole shenanigan will be enforced as mentioned before. Whatever the result here is, there are many other holes in our team battling system such as the lack of any system to mandate honest and consistent reporting, or any central power to organize teams at all. If we are to bring attention to a problem, then we should address the other issues at hand.

It is like beating a dead horse, but the hope that this can give an understanding that an outright ban is too much work, idealistic even. If a ban could fix the problem, then why not fix other problems as well and create the ideal system?

Well, because banning isn't actually a quick fix, and an ideal system is much harder to achieve. People aren't just going to listen to a central power in a small group like this.

Double Teaming is NOT killing the "community," we are pointing our fingers at an issue that would not be a problem should we have a larger player base.

Lets say we have a bag of 5 marbles with 1 red marble inside. The activity is that you pull out a random marble and throw it back in. You are very likely to constantly pull the red marble. That's because there's  not that many marbles. Increase the count to 10, now we have 1/10 chances. You're seeing this red marble less. Then you amp it up to 50, then even 100. At this point it reduces itself to a 1/100 chance, only a 1 percent chance to come across this same marble which you constantly crossed before, just because you increased the quantity of the pool.

The best solution to this is not going for a ban that forces people to act. People respond to incentives. Its not a big bang word with blurred lines and meanings like "bonds," and not any sort of vague assumption on why and what we do in teams. We are people, and we have individuality. This is apparent by how everyone brings in personal testimony more than anything else. Its all different, and in no way are any of them wrong. Trying to find a point of convergence and agreement from there just isn't going to happen.

We have to attract new members and encourage new members into entering our team battling scene. Now understand that not everyone is constantly involved in this. We have players who slip in and out, those who only see this as an occasional activity to unwind and play Vanguard. Whatever the case may be, we just need more people.

Think of the movie Cars, with Radiator Springs and how they needed to attract people as they were in danger, literally becoming wiped off the map. The solution there was to make the place more attractive and more welcoming, to open up more.

Give incentives for people and make them want to stay. That way we have a larger environment as a whole. With a growing environment, we can get an exponentially growing community once again as we did before.

...but with a rise comes a fall, and may we rise again as we did before.

Thank you for this post and thank you all as this has awakened a lot of those who have had dormant thoughts and opinions and has given the opportunity for them to be expressed.

An action which brings people here and draws out their passions, is in itself a reason to be here.

"so basically youre against it and you have power so youre losing that means you will shut this down even do there was votes and a majority agreed to ban it. but again you are in favor of it you have power so screw the small guys you win no matter what ?

damn hope this is like the new rep chat rules and no person one can have two team pages again. the people spoke and said they dont want it, in the past for what you guys are pro with you helped and voted and won. but now that this is actually something many are against you just said you wont dare change a thing even if people want to try it, want to see what comes out the other tunnel but you wont dare risk it because its not in your favor."

Never in my original post did I mention that I was going to shut down that thread, that I was losing, and that I had the power.

Re-read the whole thing. I don't even use the word "I" or even refer to myself outside of the beginning where "I" say, "let me refer to my main point."

If I wanted to shut this thread down, I would have already done so, I don't know if you notice, I am not a moderator in this section.

The whole point of formal argumentation is to treat the argument as something separate. You don't talk to using first person or even mention yourself outside of maybe some personal testimony, but even then its only brief.

This is just Straw Manning (attacking the arguer directly rather than confronting their argument) and bold assumption of something even I have never thought of. I constructed a good and clear argument using examples, even appreciating this post for existing.

"i have trully small fate in allot of people in the forum because they look out for themselves not the community or the game and even do we spoke and people see that only good thing about double/multi is more tbs nothing else it has more negatives then positives you wanna just ignore it because it doesnt suit you.

well guess thats that boys and girls going back to the original plan."

Same point as before. "suit me?" I never once talked about myself so I don't know where that came from.  In terms of you having small faith in a lot of people, that is more personal than anything. I talked about general incentives, which doesn't require faith or belief in individuals, but rather the idea that people respond to positives.

In terms of multi-teaming being for tbs and nothing else.

I indirectly addressed this when I mentioned that many people have been using their personal testimonies. Its more significant that just for "tbs." Other posts have been posted proving that there is more than just this, and I paid homage to them whether they were for or against double teaming as they presented the spectrum of stories and ideas which build up the "community," and which a successful and fun system should have to offer.

[Kisaragi Zane]

@zane

pro double teaming

you say it isolated most teams and cause conflicts, but i see mutli teaming is such a big conflict this tread was made. does that not imply that multi teaming and double teaming will not cause its conflicts ? in allot of chats i see that the conflict is with 2 teams most of the time, two very big teams even constantly at odds with one another that even the leader left it for a time. and what teams would you call struggling and how many members should double for it ? every all till one team is more active then the other, one again causing one leader to be unhappy and take shots that his members are being taken ? i can see this work out especially with certain people but what is a struggling team ? someone with 20 members and maybe only 5 are active right now ? but they have 20 members does this mean they need your members too ? like droid said allot can be twisted in these rules to suit a team, even divine souls reformed and dissbanded twice if i remember correctly with the second team losing allot of members to teams they where on as a second team. so double teaming wont always help and can infact bring one down.

Yes, double teaming can have its faults. However, I've seen it help teams that were struggling because they didn't have enough members due to life reasons or inactivity. Lending an extra hand, goes so much further beyond than just team battling: helping players improve, help structure the team, build a foundation. When your work is done, it's your choice whether or not you wish to stay and continue assisting or leave and return to your main team. I stayed on Absolute Empire because I liked the members of the team very much, I didn't have to, but I did. So yes, teams can bond through this. There isn't much of a definition of a struggling team outside of: inactive or new team that just started.

growing in double: again this was first stated i think by mythos that in double team you grow more and make more friends, but i just proved that it is possible to do this on regular none multi teams. infact it could be proven that you grow more and make more friends on none multi teaming teams since you dont stay in the two teams community or the multi teaming circle. i barely see multi teams take in new people these days with maybe one team taking one every 2 months. so it is possible to grow with both but being on single team allows you to make friends with people learn from em and you feel like you wanna fight em more cuzz you still havent seen all there skills and abilities. so yea it can work with both sides but with single the teams will learn to coopirate and work more together.

Again, we're not looking at every aspect: competitive and social benefits. People multi-team for a social benefit, which is perfectly fine however, which I've stated in my very first post: there are many alternatives to this such as skype group chats. If they want to fight alongside them: then they could always sub in every now and again, or just become full fledged members. Whatever their agenda is in terms of the social benefit: it's on them.

toxic:
zane even with multi teaming insolation and narrowmindedness maybe more evidant now as i realise we have gone full circle since pro double teams say this is possible, pro single say it is still possible even without double without the drama of people complaining members are not fighting for em. not to mention again that double/multi teams do not want to recruit new people as we are now a small community and incest among teams will only deteriorate us more. you say single team has these problems but i see that mutli teams are the ones carrying it.

Even with teams having a few double-members: you are still able to open your arms to new members or how people address them as 'randoms' into their team. I occasionally go out of my way to fight people in the main lobby early in the morning and its not bad as people may think it is. Double teaming isn't what's stopping people from recruiting people into the community.

you said you left a team to help another out. you helped started a team no shame in that, and if you left a team why did you ? because the new team is your friend ?
so want your cake and eat it too ?
but youre there own both teams, if youre there but youre on one more then the other, your helping one more trying to be on both sides. its like being with two lovers, man that must be exausting. your main comment says it helps struggling teams but why do they need help so far ? shouldnt that atleast try to look for members ? is the struggling lack of members or lack of strong members ? how much members does a struggling team need to have to be considered struggling ? how many months weeks days does it need to count as struggling ?



it just sounds like you want as many tbs as possible not train make friends or have matches. from all i see mutli teaming only has one upside and thats mutli/double teamers get to tb more. so you cant fight a regular fight ? you cant train with someone ? tb is the must the absolution ? then if tbs all you are after all youre thinking is how many tbs you can get not how you can help a team.

I left the original Neo Genesis to make a team called Blue Sorciere but I wanted to be on both because I like both teams and I wanted to be able to assist both if need be. I was told to make a decision, and I left, again: no regrets. The other members also left their teams so that we could be committed to the new team and that was that. For your information, it had nothing to do with 'strong members' or 'getting the most team battles', I honestly could give two shits about those concepts since I put the team first before myself in any occasion. Same for any other team I'm currently in or was in. I like helping people get better, improve, and learn to have fun with the game so that they aren't salty every loss, bashing and causing trouble with the opposing teams. If I can help multiple team accomplish this, then yes I'll gladly help out any team that asks me if I would like to be a part of their team. I've joined teams where I only knew 1 person and that everyone else was nothing more than complete strangers to me that I didn't particularly care for. Hanging with them and improving together and accomplishing goals together they've become friends, some even closer. So it's really not about "getting the most TBs" or "wanting to be with strong players" or "being with friends" because the first two sound very narrow-minded and very biased while the last one is well... how would I put it? At the end of the day, if you bond with a team, they're going to become your friends regardless anyway.

[Jai Hearts]

same as you didnt say i, did i say you ? that was omnidirectional at a whole bunch of people.

many people have pointed it out mutli teaming has just one gain with more tbs for a person on multiple teams and not mutli teaming has ether less or none of the problems and all the positives.

people cant really ignore this since even those with mutli teaming teams are against it but they want this ban to pass because they dont wanna stop it so they dont become enemies with there "friends".

we are a community just because we all dont agree on something doesnt mean we cant try it. we tried so many things that ended with so many drama but this can potentially stop one and help us grow.

sure it wont be easy

sure same as mutli teaming took months to grow single teams will take months to grow.

yes not all new teams will rise and yes those relying on members from other teams will fal.

but we whats the fun in the arguing, the backstabbing, all this negativity just so you can get so many tbs? way so many tbs ? does it improve your life ? do you get paid big for winning ?

will it help the community ? yes

will it fix all problems ? no

do we have to work for it ? yes

will there still be problems dissagreement drama ? hell yes, but atleast this way we got more teams more options because when there is drama lately in one team problems it chains to like 5 different teams.

we get it guys you want your leader power you want your team but whats the point in living in a paper home if youre scared that a breeze will fall it down ?

i know from the start this vote wouldnt effect anything for teams in area because most of the people that can set the rules wont do it since they are pro mutli/double. even do the people that are on here more then them the people that know this community better then the circle in the forum want it to stop want it to improve, it just doesnt suit you, you dont see a problem because you need it so you ignore others that say please please stop.

so your option is ignore it we need it even if it is more cancer then healthy.

[Pcdroid]

@Hope

Finally someone with a well structured argument. Props to you for that.
Now for the issue at hand:
"Let me start with the main point, people respond to incentives."

 I completely agree with you on that one and that is the reason why i think double teaming is a bad idea which brings me to my next point.

"Of course, an outright ban has no incentives for both members and leaders unless they support it."
"Double Teaming is NOT killing the "community," we are pointing our fingers at an issue that would not be a problem should we have a larger player base."

 I put these two points together because this actually answers both of them. Indeed double teaming does not kill the community, it does however restrict it in more ways than one, because of double teaming this community restricts itself into its current player base and it gives 0 incentives for leaders to try and get new people into the team battling scene. Banning double teaming will actually give leaders incentive to go to the starting area and look for new members to recruit. Limiting each person to one team will open the way for new players to come to the Team System and be introduced into the forum and the area community. The double teaming system, as it is right now, gives 0 incentives for leaders to actually look for new members and introduce them to the community, its not only about the system being attractive enough to make them stay, because to make people stay in the community, we have to get them in in the first place, and double teaming does not help with that. That outright ban is the thing thats gonna give people incentives to make their teams grow with new blood and rejuvenate the team system to a certain extent.

"The best solution to this is not going for a ban that forces people to act. People respond to incentives. Its not a big bang word with blurred lines and meanings like "bonds," and not any sort of vague assumption on why and what we do in teams. We are people, and we have individuality. This is apparent by how everyone brings in personal testimony more than anything else. Its all different, and in no way are any of them wrong. Trying to find a point of convergence and agreement from there just isn't going to happen."

Banning is a possible solution.
If you want facts I might as well give some to you.
RT is the longest standing team on area, constantly active and team battles constantly, and by far the least drama inducing, no reworks,reforms name changes etc since its creation. Also has a lot of different active members each time. Why? this team is doing something right which is having multi teaming and subbing banned(also the only team who actually tries to recruit randoms on area).

Every team on area is constantly reforming, reworking,changing names, disbanding and regrouping again, now tell me, does that look like a healthy system to you? because to me it certainly isn't. Reforming a system takes actions, talking about a ban being idealistic and not even practical without even trying to apply it or change the system in some way does not solve anything, we have to at least try it and see how it works out, nothing comes without effort and I'm willing to support the effort these voters put to make a healthier team system and a more moral one to boot.

"We have to attract new members and encourage new members into entering our team battling scene. Now understand that not everyone is constantly involved in this. We have players who slip in and out, those who only see this as an occasional activity to unwind and play Vanguard. Whatever the case may be, we just need more people."
"Give incentives for people and make them want to stay. That way we have a larger environment as a whole. With a growing environment, we can get an exponentially growing community once again as we did before."

To attract new members we have to make the effort to do so, People have to actually try and recruit members from "randoms" and give new people a chance. Do you know why people don't do that? Simply because multi teaming is easier, and you just allow it. It's hard to give people incentives when you just gave them the easy option to go for. Sometimes restricting peoples options actually drives people to the right direction, which is why laws exist. You have to get leaders to put effort into gathering members for their teams, to be able to consistently team battle and have fun, to give chances to the new players on area who love to play the game as much as we do.
 

[NubKnightZ]

1. Restrict team count to an upper limit. A team with 30 members not only kills competition (due to lack of opponents to play) but when combined with multi-teaming ruins team identity as a whole. (If 75% of two teams are exactly the same, there's really no difference in the two and is pointless. If anything, it can be abused for win-loss ratios by posting wins for 1 and losses on the other to keep records "clean".)
2. Allow substitutes for low count teams only. If your team only has X amount of players and thus probably won't be able to constantly play, then yes, substitutes will be required. If your team has like 10 people and you can't get 3 to be around reliably, then you should reconsider who deserves to be a team member.
3. Allow "double-team-playable"; as in a player may play for two teams. (This brings a bit of lenience to those who really have gotten attached to more than 1 team over time; do not abuse this to make sister teams that are pretty much the same roster.) However, this does not mean that you can't be allowed to be in multiple team chats for those afraid of losing contact with friends. That's up to the teams to decide. You'll still get 90% of the experience just by being in the chat and being active there. You can watch, you can coach, give tips and advice. You just can't play for them.
4. Repost: Enforce honest records. Post-TB, both teams should report within 5 minutes and it's on both teams to confirm the results are correct in both threads. No skewed false win-rates.
5. Repost: As mentioned prior and by other people, encourage people to go out and look for newer players to join. There's little to no attempt to widen the community when some identify the issue of the community dying.

[[R.T] SpiderHunterMD]

You know what would be nice.... actually coming to a compromise or agreement. Yes its true, some people are 100% against double teaming (I mean I did flip my shit that time when hope decided to make two idol teams, but then again maybe that was just because I hate Love Live and similar stuff but I digress.) There are also some who are 100% for double teaming, thinking it doesn't really have an impact and we have some people in-between.

So why not make a compromise... or at least try to since from what I can see at this point its slowly devolving into a full on hate festival over here.

I mean like a simple solution is just to have most or all teams keep an up-to-date members list and then let the other teams decide if they want to act on a double teaming person and kick them out of their team if they so desire or have a hatred against double teaming. Or you could just put a limit on a number of teams a single person is allowed to join or such. (E.g like 2 maximum)

Also even if you somehow get it banned, you have a major flaw which is Implementation and Enforcement because one person cannot force or impose their ban onto another team, after all its their team not yours. And even if it gets implemented, its team leaders who will enforce and their is not going be a punishment for breaking the rule.

(Note: was created before NubKnightZ posted just after Zane's post)

[Jai Hearts]

pro

if they dont have time and the team doesnt have people to look out for it wouldnt it be better to disband it ? i mean i love area too but the life outside of my computer is more important to me and a choose it over area in a heartbeat. i was close to dissbanding my own team when some people just said hey let us help. in the end the object is not running a team but being on a team. wouldnt it be better to be on one with a few people that have the time to set tbs rather then kick a dead horse ? and even so i remembered you where both a members of the original ds and ae in the past, and even do you say now you love it something did happen that it dissbanded and you formed a team that had a no mutli teaming rule if i remember correctly. fact is you yourself prooved then that mutli teaming has its problems if you left both teams.

growing

so if youre good friends with a team you must sub on them or what youre not friends ?
but you yourself said there are alternate options even fight with em join in there training. even my team train allot with other teams and mix it up, but when it comes to tbs we show what our team is. you dont need to sub for a team because there your friend, or do you date other girls when your wife is at home ? (unless you know xD menage)

Toxic

it does actually since look at most teams, same people that have been on here for years, you yourself say they are considered randoms. even my team and many others who dont mutli team had members who where considered randoms or weaklings and they grew because they got a chance.

you seem to only look at whats positive for you, im sorry for what happened with BS but people dont agree with you and you only keep repeating your same narrow minded view that you think it helps that mutli teaming must be the best option. people once taught smoking was harmless and in time that too was proven wrong. zane i get it thats your view but can we agree that sometimes our views are potentially wrong ? you yourself had a team with no mutli team and so many came to join you but you yourself send people away claiming that the where not up to standards of what a team members should be for you, so cant we just open our minds ? cant we try to bring in and help people grow ? or do you rather alienate those you see in the forest till you find the golden goose ? im not saying we need to only take in good people hell a few weeks ago my team took in a total novice to train.

you say mutli teams help grow help get allong but its actions are the opisite with those teams sharing only the same people giving almost no one thats new a chance to grow, it is infact keeping them in a closed circle untill they see someone they like and try to bring em in. there are even mutli teaming teams controlling some of these new members telling em to not go on another team till they leave that team and the leader might tell em to come back.

so how is mutli teaming helping the community grow improve and communcate if we are ostractzing others and keeping a closed and narrow mind and our only respons for mutli/double is its helping and youre narrow minded ?

[Yukkuri Shinji]

I personally am against double and multi teaming in the first place. I don't see how can one even try to stand up for such idea. I do agree that sometimes one or two teams need a sub for a team battle or such which can be fine if it is mentioned but being in two teams at once is as being in no team at all.

I also find that teams while open should have some team limit so more teams are open and more team battles are offered instead of having a single team with 40 members where only 15 of them are active. Some major reset should be done. At least among some official CFA teams that are mentioned on forum.

Community is small and all, I know but I find that with this tempo there won't be any community but a bunch of people that know each other and just switch the team when they feel like it.

[Hope]

Banning is a possible solution.
If you want facts I might as well give some to you.
RT is the longest standing team on area, constantly active and team battles constantly, and by far the least drama inducing, no reworks,reforms name changes etc since its creation. Also has a lot of different active members each time. Why? this team is doing something right which is having multi teaming and subbing banned(also the only team who actually tries to recruit randoms on area).

"It is like beating a dead horse, but the hope that this can give an understanding that an outright ban is too much work, idealistic even. If a ban could fix the problem, then why not fix other problems as well and create the ideal system?

Well, because banning isn't actually a quick fix, and an ideal system is much harder to achieve. People aren't just going to listen to a central power in a small group like this."

I put these two points together because this actually answers both of them. Indeed double teaming does not kill the community, it does however restrict it in more ways than one, because of double teaming this community restricts itself into its current player base and it gives 0 incentives for leaders to try and get new people into the team battling scene. Banning double teaming will actually give leaders incentive to go to the starting area and look for new members to recruit. Limiting each person to one team will open the way for new players to come to the Team System and be introduced into the forum and the area community. The double teaming system, as it is right now, gives 0 incentives for leaders to actually look for new members and introduce them to the community, its not only about the system being attractive enough to make them stay, because to make people stay in the community, we have to get them in in the first place, and double teaming does not help with that. That outright ban is the thing thats gonna give people incentives to make their teams grow with new blood and rejuvenate the team system to a certain extent.

A ban gives leader 0 incentives to actually follow it. Being forced is not an incentive. As Spider mentioned as well, Implementation and Enforcement is a problem.

Any way to introduce people into the community is fine, it doesn't have to be limited to teams. We can endorse our tournaments, and bring people here however way we wish to. Simply wanting to support the community is an incentive itself which requires no action and has no problem in its way. All that's necessary is compromise now that we have pinpointed the problem. Compromise on the double teaming bad is not possible, seeing as how this thread has been going, but we all seem to agree on one thing.

Our community needs to grow again.

In which case, action can be taken towards this.

- Recruiting members in the forest and main area. Double teaming still exists, but Callum has already started a team with a sort of   system that is more invited to new members of this group.

--- At this point let me digress into my own personal thing. You can exclude this from the actual argument, I just want to bring this up.

- I had the Grade System Event to bring people in. Those people eventually ended up joining teams and are here today. Spider, pidoves, ryuji, just to mention a few and I remember a good deal of them and appreciated their participation. All I had to do was set up an event and activity that was exclusive to this forum and that in itself was my incentive to stay. Note that I had this whole idea in mind when I set up GSE and it was actually my way to literally bring life back to the forum and for the longest time I am aware that people were against it as the forum had evolved to only be about it, but I feel that it was better that way actually since at least there was life.

---

All it takes is recognizing the problem. Now that the problem is recognized, while we cannot come to an agreement on one thing, which is the ban, we may be able to find an agreement in getting new members in. So far there hasn't seemed to be any argument in actually getting new members into this "community."

[Jai Hearts]

well i limit my team to around 25 with removing one or two inactive once amonth
ofcourse no team will hold on to the limit which isnt too bad in my opinion since teams need to evolve in there own right.

but even so subbing is not needed since tbs isnt the only thing a team can do any not the only way to enjoy being on a team

allot of teams pss df ds (new one), and even teams who have no names yet that i am helping out are recruiting without subbing or replying on mutli teamers because they saw how it ended for most teams and a applause and help em because i know how hard it is making a team without those. i myself tried multi teaming when i first started a team two years ago but it was like i had no members at all because no one wanted to fight for my side. so i kicked em all out untill i was left with two members, me and one of my best friends on here. then weasel came then tobi and so on and so on started coming. yes my team struggled even last year we lost almost all of our core members. ether to offers from other teams or to life situations till we where pretty much the only on mutli teaming team. yes it is a struggle and now i was way more members then my limit and when im full i help other teams who need it. something that others seem to only see possible with mutli teams, but i have seen mutli teams constantly rise and fall and the none multi teams they last longer. some fall but the ones with leaders that have the drive and keep it, the one that trains there other members to lead not just fight. those teams those teams wont die easly.

[Jai Hearts]

Banning is a possible solution.
If you want facts I might as well give some to you.
RT is the longest standing team on area, constantly active and team battles constantly, and by far the least drama inducing, no reworks,reforms name changes etc since its creation. Also has a lot of different active members each time. Why? this team is doing something right which is having multi teaming and subbing banned(also the only team who actually tries to recruit randoms on area).

"It is like beating a dead horse, but the hope that this can give an understanding that an outright ban is too much work, idealistic even. If a ban could fix the problem, then why not fix other problems as well and create the ideal system?

Well, because banning isn't actually a quick fix, and an ideal system is much harder to achieve. People aren't just going to listen to a central power in a small group like this."

I put these two points together because this actually answers both of them. Indeed double teaming does not kill the community, it does however restrict it in more ways than one, because of double teaming this community restricts itself into its current player base and it gives 0 incentives for leaders to try and get new people into the team battling scene. Banning double teaming will actually give leaders incentive to go to the starting area and look for new members to recruit. Limiting each person to one team will open the way for new players to come to the Team System and be introduced into the forum and the area community. The double teaming system, as it is right now, gives 0 incentives for leaders to actually look for new members and introduce them to the community, its not only about the system being attractive enough to make them stay, because to make people stay in the community, we have to get them in in the first place, and double teaming does not help with that. That outright ban is the thing thats gonna give people incentives to make their teams grow with new blood and rejuvenate the team system to a certain extent.

A ban gives leader 0 incentives to actually follow it. Being forced is not an incentive. As Spider mentioned as well, Implementation and Enforcement is a problem.

Any way to introduce people into the community is fine, it doesn't have to be limited to teams. We can endorse our tournaments, and bring people here however way we wish to. Simply wanting to support the community is an incentive itself which requires no action and has no problem in its way. All that's necessary is compromise now that we have pinpointed the problem. Compromise on the double teaming bad is not possible, seeing as how this thread has been going, but we all seem to agree on one thing.

Our community needs to grow again.

In which case, action can be taken towards this.

- Recruiting members in the forest and main area. Double teaming still exists, but Callum has already started a team with a sort of   system that is more invited to new members of this group.

--- At this point let me digress into my own personal thing. You can exclude this from the actual argument, I just want to bring this up.

- I had the Grade System Event to bring people in. Those people eventually ended up joining teams and are here today. Spider, pidoves, ryuji, just to mention a few and I remember a good deal of them and appreciated their participation. All I had to do was set up an event and activity that was exclusive to this forum and that in itself was my incentive to stay. Note that I had this whole idea in mind when I set up GSE and it was actually my way to literally bring life back to the forum and for the longest time I am aware that people were against it as the forum had evolved to only be about it, but I feel that it was better that way actually since at least there was life.

---

All it takes is recognizing the problem. Now that the problem is recognized, while we cannot come to an agreement on one thing, which is the ban, we may be able to find an agreement in getting new members in. So far there hasn't seemed to be any argument in actually getting new members into this "community."

so youre saying you dont do it cuzz its work ? everything we do on here from starting a team recruiting members everything is a bit of work which is why we enjoy it so much.

if people here are fighting for this and agreeing then they are by far ready to work.

the people are speaking that they are ready to do what they must this forum every speech we make it is work.
and we already know again yes banning is NOT A QUICK FIX. like i said before it might take atleast a year for things to kick up if mutli teaming stops. but your argument is you arnt ready to work but i see a good number of people are ready.

this forum yea its pretty much dead because no one inforces the rules lets face it this forum is not a place to spend time or talk on but we are speaking on the problem of community and teams.

callum has always been recruiting trust me im the one helping him out for a while now but he himself relied later on mutli team and he once again is going to none mutli so this isnt anything new.

and im not gonna mention it now but the GSE, it had its problems most of us know it but again youre saying they should come to us, why cant we go to them too ? this forum is not a place for a community since there are basically no rules of conduct and who ever is incharge sets what ever rules for what ever people.

ofcourse there cant be an agreement because some benifite from it which is why we voted on it and the majority agrees that multi is bad. we try to bring in new people but those in multi teams feels there is no need to bring in anyone new only to look inside for members till there is an incest among most teams.

ofcourse no one agrees because there will always be dissagreement when something favors one more then the other but people here they want to work for it and those that dont ofcourse vote no but those same people will complain the same complains later.

both single and multi seem to have the same positive argument but only mutli seems to cause problems, hate, greed, and insolation among fighters. if you want all the positives you get then you already got em with single. what are we losing with the removal of multi ? all the negative stuff then ok why are we arguing then ?

[Kisaragi Zane]

pro

if they dont have time and the team doesnt have people to look out for it wouldnt it be better to disband it ? I don't understand why you would want to disband a team for a temporary inconvenience. Just exit yourself out of the team and let your members continue. If they're having trouble, they can always ask for help. And as you said, some people approached you after you were close to disbanding your team, offering to help you out. I've done the same thing for many teams. So are you implying that your team would've disbanded if they hadn't shown up? Did you not want or believe in your members to continue on without you?

growing

so if youre good friends with a team you must sub on them or what youre not friends ?
but you yourself said there are alternate options even fight with em join in there training. even my team train allot with other teams and mix it up, but when it comes to tbs we show what our team is. you dont need to sub for a team because there your friend, or do you date other girls when your wife is at home ? (unless you know xD menage)

I'm not saying they HAVE to sub to maintain friends. I'm saying if they desperately really want to TB alongside their friends who is on a different team, they can very much do so through subbing if given the chance. Other alternatives including participating in Team Tournaments, Play other games together, or even talk in a group chats. Also as a side note, can you please refrain from using marriage as an example, I find it horrible to compare this to that. Everyone has a reason for double teaming.


you seem to only look at whats positive for you, im sorry for what happened with BS but people dont agree with you and you only keep repeating your same narrow minded view that you think it helps that mutli teaming must be the best option. people once taught smoking was harmless and in time that too was proven wrong. zane i get it thats your view but can we agree that sometimes our views are potentially wrong ? you yourself had a team with no mutli team and so many came to join you but you yourself send people away claiming that the where not up to standards of what a team members should be for you, so cant we just open our minds ? cant we try to bring in and help people grow ? or do you rather alienate those you see in the forest till you find the golden goose ? im not saying we need to only take in good people hell a few weeks ago my team took in a total novice to train.

I honestly don't know what you're sorry for or why for that matter, Blue Sorciere is still exist and I'd greatly appreciate it if it wasn't brought up anymore since I was asked to state my experience on why I'm pro-double teaming. I'm only repeating the fact that Double-Teaming has benefits and that it should continue to be part of the community for legitimate reasons. Please pay attention when I say "LEGITIMATE REASONS". I'm pretty sure people are not taught that smoking is harmless nor do I fail to see why this is even being used an example. I've never once sent people away for 'standards', I give everyone a fair shot unless the entire team says "No" to said person. Like I said joining or recruiting 'strong players' is a concept that I give little to no shit about because anyone can become 'stronger/good', it just takes a good environment and good effort. Everyone has a purpose on a team and their experiences can help lead to the growth and improvement of other fighters. That's always been the foundation of why Divine Souls allowed double teaming: to bring what they learn from the outside, inside. Also as stated before, yes Double Team can lead to problems and lead to issues however the only real issue that's being brought up regarding it, and the whole reason the thread was even made was because: People were tired of seeing the same people fight on multiple teams. By multiple I mean 4-5 different teams. This is a competitive issue and as I said before, even though I am pro-double teaming, the way people abuse this is what's affecting the competitive scene. I've been very open minded and stated my personal beliefs as to why Double Teaming should exist and stated my own experiences. Nothing have I said has been narrow-minded. I've taken into the account of everything you've said about how double teaming 'ruins the community', how it helps improve the community, how it 'ruins teams', how it 'helps teams', and how it ruins the competitive scene. I wouldn't be posting if I didn't consider any of those things. I'm not saying I like double teaming because I can be with friends, I'm merely stating that double teaming has had pros through my experiences and thus my opinion and belief for this system to stay should be as such.

[Jai Hearts]

pro

if they dont have time and the team doesnt have people to look out for it wouldnt it be better to disband it ? I don't understand why you would want to disband a team for a temporary inconvenience. Just exit yourself out of the team and let your members continue. If they're having trouble, they can always ask for help. And as you said, some people approached you after you were close to disbanding your team, offering to help you out. I've done the same thing for many teams. So are you implying that your team would've disbanded if they hadn't shown up? Did you not want or believe in your members to continue on without you?

growing

so if youre good friends with a team you must sub on them or what youre not friends ?
but you yourself said there are alternate options even fight with em join in there training. even my team train allot with other teams and mix it up, but when it comes to tbs we show what our team is. you dont need to sub for a team because there your friend, or do you date other girls when your wife is at home ? (unless you know xD menage)

I'm not saying they HAVE to sub to maintain friends. I'm saying if they desperately really want to TB alongside their friends who is on a different team, they can very much do so through subbing if given the chance. Other alternatives including participating in Team Tournaments, Play other games together, or even talk in a group chats. Also as a side note, can you please refrain from using marriage as an example, I find it horrible to compare this to that. Everyone has a reason for double teaming.


you seem to only look at whats positive for you, im sorry for what happened with BS but people dont agree with you and you only keep repeating your same narrow minded view that you think it helps that mutli teaming must be the best option. people once taught smoking was harmless and in time that too was proven wrong. zane i get it thats your view but can we agree that sometimes our views are potentially wrong ? you yourself had a team with no mutli team and so many came to join you but you yourself send people away claiming that the where not up to standards of what a team members should be for you, so cant we just open our minds ? cant we try to bring in and help people grow ? or do you rather alienate those you see in the forest till you find the golden goose ? im not saying we need to only take in good people hell a few weeks ago my team took in a total novice to train.

I honestly don't know what you're sorry for or why for that matter, Blue Sorciere is still exist and I'd greatly appreciate it if it wasn't brought up anymore since I was asked to state my experience on why I'm pro-double teaming. I'm only repeating the fact that Double-Teaming has benefits and that it should continue to be part of the community for legitimate reasons. Please pay attention when I say "LEGITIMATE REASONS". I'm pretty sure people are not taught that smoking is harmless nor do I fail to see why this is even being used an example. I've never once sent people away for 'standards', I give everyone a fair shot unless the entire team says "No" to said person. Like I said joining or recruiting 'strong players' is a concept that I give little to no shit about because anyone can become 'stronger/good', it just takes a good environment and good effort. Everyone has a purpose on a team and their experiences can help lead to the growth and improvement of other fighters. That's always been the foundation of why Divine Souls allowed double teaming: to bring what they learn from the outside, inside. Also as stated before, yes Double Team can lead to problems and lead to issues however the only real issue that's being brought up regarding it, and the whole reason the thread was even made was because: People were tired of seeing the same people fight on multiple teams. By multiple I mean 4-5 different teams. This is a competitive issue and as I said before, even though I am pro-double teaming, the way people abuse this is what's affecting the competitive scene. I've been very open minded and stated my personal beliefs as to why Double Teaming should exist and stated my own experiences. Nothing have I said has been narrow-minded. I've taken into the account of everything you've said about how double teaming 'ruins the community', how it helps improve the community, how it 'ruins teams', how it 'helps teams', and how it ruins the competitive scene. I wouldn't be posting if I didn't consider any of those things. I'm not saying I like double teaming because I can be with friends, I'm merely stating that double teaming has had pros through my experiences and thus my opinion and belief for this system to stay should be as such.

wow allot of my convos are missing form that just pieces.

but you yourself almost every team you where on or is on are ether dissbanded or inactive minus NR and TA who all shared some members right ? you say double teaming works but your past is a good example of why it has more cons then pro.

you could go to one stop because it has cheaper products but in the end if the gas youre burning costs you more then the stop thats just a few steps from your house is it worth it. or maybe you dont know that youre basically burning the same more gas then you need to?