Double Teaming

[Kisaragi Zane]

wow allot of my convos are missing form that just pieces. but you yourself almost every team you where on or is on are ether dissbanded or inactive minus NR and TA who do share some members right ? you say double teaming works but your past is a good example of why it has more cons then pro.

you could go to one stop because it has cheaper products but in the end if the gas youre burning costs you more then the stop thats just a few steps from your house is it worth it. or maybe you dont know that youre basically burning the same ammount of gas ?

I only kept the parts of the conversation that I wanted to touch upon. It's nothing personal. Also my teams disbanding are not the result of multi or even double teaming. They were disbanded due to internal disputes or inactivity (as in no one was around to participate in team activities due to personal life). I would like to further mention: Rising Eclipse/Ragnarok Storm did not allow multi-teaming at any point whatsoever. Neither did Cosmic Origins. Absolute Empire only allowed double-teaming with a legitimate purpose. Night Raid is the first team I've made that has allowed double-teaming to prevent any conflicts. If you want to ask about Divine Souls or Sanctuary Alliance, you're better off asking Nova, Mythos or NeoBuster. And I believe I should mention that Crescent Moon (A team that I was on before joining Team Asteroid) was disbanded because the leader had real life obligations that she needed to fulfill, also this team did not allow double teaming. In short, none of these teams disbanded as a result of multi/double teaming: for most did not allow it. Thank you very much~

[Jai Hearts]

wow allot of my convos are missing form that just pieces. but you yourself almost every team you where on or is on are ether dissbanded or inactive minus NR and TA who do share some members right ? you say double teaming works but your past is a good example of why it has more cons then pro.

you could go to one stop because it has cheaper products but in the end if the gas youre burning costs you more then the stop thats just a few steps from your house is it worth it. or maybe you dont know that youre basically burning the same ammount of gas ?

I only kept the parts of the conversation that I wanted to touch upon. It's nothing personal. Also my teams disbanding are not the result of multi or even double teaming. They were disbanded due to internal disputes or inactivity (as in no one was around to participate in team activities due to personal life).

still most of us know for a fact some came over multi team. and if people cant tb then why be on a team or lead one if they cant be active ? i say let someone that is more active get a chance to lead to grow. you cant single handedly hold a team together without work without help. the reason some teams live so long some teams are so amazing is because they do the work.

youre speaking pro of multi teams but you ignore the negative how so many of those teams you love dissbanded via problems i will not state here, but mutli team played a role. even you yourself made RS by leaving AE DS and what ever other team you where on to form it with those members that followed you. and stated that they are not allowed to be on other teams. so for a time even you agreed there was a problem with multi team, am i wrong ? ofcourse its easier but there will always be struggles and not everyone can be a leader of a team. if you want to help a team grow then you dont automatically need to be a leader to do this (wow im gonna probably stop talking soon since im repeating myself again) you can just be a member be a fighter grow in the team and people and learn form others. we cant just ignore what doesnt convenience because we dont wanna be proven wrong, or we are just sticking to a one narrow mind set.

[Kisaragi Zane]

still most of us know for a fact some came over multi team. and if people cant tb then why be on a team or lead one if they cant be active ? i say let someone that is more active get a chance to lead to grow. you cant single handedly hold a team together without work without help. the reason some teams live so long some teams are so amazing is because they do the work.

youre speaking pro of multi teams but you ignore the negative how so many of those teams you love dissbanded via problems i will not state here, but mutli team played a role. even you yourself made RS by leaving AE DS and what ever other team you where on to form it with those members that followed you. and stated that they are not allowed to be on other teams. so for a time even you agreed there was a problem with multi team, am i wrong ? ofcourse its easier but there will always be struggles and not everyone can be a leader of a team. if you want to help a team grow then you dont automatically need to be a leader to do this (wow im gonna probably stop talking soon since im repeating myself again) you can just be a member be a fighter grow in the team and people and learn form others. we cant just ignore what doesnt convenience because we dont wanna be proven wrong, or we are just sticking to a one narrow mind set.

For the last time, multi-teaming did not play a role in any of those teams disbanding. Ragnarok Storm didn't allow double teaming for the reason that we all aimed to be committed to the team. Multi/Double Teaming wasn't a problem. We very much could've allowed it but we didn't. So yes, you are wrong. The only one who is sticking to a narrow mindset is you by assuming the reason teams disbanded was a result of double/multi teaming. I can list each and every reason in full detail as to why each team disbanded or went inactive, none of those were a result of multi/double teaming. Also if you're repeating yourself over and over again, that's just you. As I've said, I'm merely stating my experience, my beliefs, and that I understand and comprehend and respect why people would be against it and why or how it may be 'killing' CFA in more ways than one.

[Pcdroid]

@Hope

"All that's necessary is compromise now that we have pinpointed the problem. Compromise on the double teaming bad is not possible, seeing as how this thread has been going, but we all seem to agree on one thing.

Our community needs to grow again."

Allow me to start with this because this is the first thing we actually have to address. I believe you are already aware that this post is a poll right? and a poll about whether double teaming should be banned nonetheless.
Now let's check out the results so far:
54 total votes

26 in favor of the ban
10 against it
18 say that it at least needs to be limited in some way

now what does that show us? does it seem that people cant agree on the ban? because the poll results say the opposite. 48.2% of the voters (which is about half and the majority) want to implement a ban on double teaming specifically and 33.3% more want it to be at least limited in some shape or form. Only 18.5% of the voters believe there are no problems with it. In other words 81.5 percent of us actually agree that there is something wrong with double teaming in general, therefore a ban isnt as far fetched as you make it to be and something has to be done about double teaming.

"It is like beating a dead horse, but the hope that this can give an understanding that an outright ban is too much work, idealistic even. If a ban could fix the problem, then why not fix other problems as well and create the ideal system?

Well, because banning isn't actually a quick fix, and an ideal system is much harder to achieve. People aren't just going to listen to a central power in a small group like this."

"A ban gives leader 0 incentives to actually follow it. Being forced is not an incentive. As Spider mentioned as well, Implementation and Enforcement is a problem."

A ban is far from an idealistic approach to things, in fact a ban is the easiest solution to the problem, and also, a Ban is something you force people to do which is far from idealistic, if the majority of the voters request a ban, then the mods have to implement it in some way shape or form at least to the places where area is concerned (tbs, forums, the game itself) if the mods cannot implement a ban requested by the community then they are doing something wrong.

Restrictions are needed to build a solid community, if you think a ban is far fetched then you sir are either an idealist who thinks he can resolve things without consequences or your deliberately trying to build something chaotic.

"All it takes is recognizing the problem. Now that the problem is recognized, while we cannot come to an agreement on one thing, which is the ban, we may be able to find an agreement in getting new members in. So far there hasn't seemed to be any argument in actually getting new members into this "community.""

But you are seeing the problem from one side only. Building up the community depends on a lot of parameters, and banning double teaming is a big step to the fixing of that problem. However we are not talking about that certain problem right now, we are talking about Double teaming specifically and the poll clearly shows that its a problem, if you choose to disregard that fact then you simply don't care enough about what the community has to say.

[Beryl]

If you were to ban double teaming at the moment, if we're to take into account the current situation, you would greatly reduce the number of teams running around, which is a double-edged sword. Sure, you prevent the problem of people being able to cover multiple spots in a team battle, but you also then force rosters of sister teams back onto the original roster, or whatever is deemed the original roster, which will greatly bloat their size and make it really hard to set up team battles of reasonable size with ease. That might seem like a bit of an odd complaint, because leaders tend to interact and call the shots on what's happening, but certain teams lacking roster caps is another thing that could easily become as much of a problem as this vaguely claims to be.

I'm not against the idea of restricting double teaming, because I can see the argument of our community being a bit more tight-knit. I don't think people should be able to claim a position on 4-5 teams that are essentially sister teams of the same team; that's caused problems in actual sports and esports before, let alone our casual system. But because this community also has a hard time reaching out to other people (I saw an argument earlier asking why we didn't reach out to people on Map 1 of Area and I laughed, really hard), it's hard to get new blood interested in this community. People also overlook the fact that, myself included, this place gets into a lot of pointless drama. If people don't want to be a part of pointless drama, why would they bother coming over here and interacting to some degree? They just want to play the game.

Essentially, I think the real problem is that you want to freshen up how team battling feels as an experience and are assuming this is the problem that holds it back, when in reality we're rather clique-y and to abolish this entirely would possibly make things even worse. If anything, what you might consider doing is trying to be creative with how team battles go. If it's competitive every time, of course it's going to get boring. Go for fun fights.

[Snosoul]

Oh how this has devolved from proper discussion....

I'll give my proper thoughts when I get home later in the afternoon but on short notice....

Hope, thank you for your thoughts and passionate speech I'll have a couple things to say when I can.

Jai, I understand your passion but you should relax a bit more on this and think your posts through just s bit more. Your emotions are running far to high. (And your grammar is murdering me my friend DX)

To others I'll mention things that I want to bring up, look forward to my lengthy post when u get the chance.

[Cherry]

I'm not partaking in this discussion but I'm going to state very clearly that I'm not going to tolerate spamming stupid, useless shit in this thread. I deleted several pointless posts and you all who made them know who you are. This is a serious debate (regardless of my opinion of how asinine it is), so if you have nothing to contribute to the topic beyond "this is stupid" or a gif about nothing, DO NOT POST.

Bless.

[Jai Hearts]

If you were to ban double teaming at the moment, if we're to take into account the current situation, you would greatly reduce the number of teams running around, which is a double-edged sword. Sure, you prevent the problem of people being able to cover multiple spots in a team battle, but you also then force rosters of sister teams back onto the original roster, or whatever is deemed the original roster, which will greatly bloat their size and make it really hard to set up team battles of reasonable size with ease. That might seem like a bit of an odd complaint, because leaders tend to interact and call the shots on what's happening, but certain teams lacking roster caps is another thing that could easily become as much of a problem as this vaguely claims to be.

I'm not against the idea of restricting double teaming, because I can see the argument of our community being a bit more tight-knit. I don't think people should be able to claim a position on 4-5 teams that are essentially sister teams of the same team; that's caused problems in actual sports and esports before, let alone our casual system. But because this community also has a hard time reaching out to other people (I saw an argument earlier asking why we didn't reach out to people on Map 1 of Area and I laughed, really hard), it's hard to get new blood interested in this community. People also overlook the fact that, myself included, this place gets into a lot of pointless drama. If people don't want to be a part of pointless drama, why would they bother coming over here and interacting to some degree? They just want to play the game.

Essentially, I think the real problem is that you want to freshen up how team battling feels as an experience and are assuming this is the problem that holds it back, when in reality we're rather clique-y and to abolish this entirely would possibly make things even worse. If anything, what you might consider doing is trying to be creative with how team battles go. If it's competitive every time, of course it's going to get boring. Go for fun fights.

berly you have been away for a long time from teams, but allot of the people are on the same teams, we even call some teams now sub teams because they literally have the same members just a different name and leader, from that point of view we are not losing anything other then a teams second name since those people will still be on the same team. right now we cant really say let the leaders solve the problems since you get one teams multi members which gets it in there favor. while the community themselves spoke. so far i see people like asaka who never even had an account and gone form most of area for years come on and vote because she was told vote. as for roster caps like most things we can control that but teams themselves even my members when we grow allot move on try to make there own teams or join others.

yes drama we know enough. but if allot of things change for some peoples favor cant they change for the ohers favor to especially when its a vote ?

and we try but most people have there mind set. multi team comes from those who cant keep there own teams up asking for help. it didnt used to be a big problem in the past since it was small and yes it got out of hand. but lets face it limits in one month like the rules for the drama chat will change or be completely erased. voting to limit it is almost the same as voting no since people will simple create rules to exploit or break and erase em. and those that now see that they are on the less favored side want to compromise because they are indeed fearing for there own gain. i believe that in time as i see so many people that dont even cardfight on area anymore come vote for limited it might pass yes because there is no set date for this .

but the immediate the people that are on here daily spoke and they said yes stop this yes it is a problem, and the people with multi teams agree multi and single have the same positives and if that is so then why is it a problem to remove multi and double when people agree double is more porblematic  and has more problems and negatives ?

i know with the majority of people in power the dont want to bring a change here they wont stop it they will just keep arguing like a superman vs goku argument even if you lay proof down infront of em because they wont want to be in the wrong or lose and if a change is brought it will be short because like many showed there not willing to work for it and rather go the easy root even if there own past and present proofed that it isnt working.

[Jai Hearts]

Oh how this has devolved from proper discussion....

I'll give my proper thoughts when I get home later in the afternoon but on short notice....

Hope, thank you for your thoughts and passionate speech I'll have a couple things to say when I can.

Jai, I understand your passion but you should relax a bit more on this and think your posts through just s bit more. Your emotions are running far to high. (And your grammar is murdering me my friend DX)

To others I'll mention things that I want to bring up, look forward to my lengthy post when u get the chance.

yea trying to post fast since this is moving fast. but i am pretty calm dont worry.

[Beryl]

If you were to ban double teaming at the moment, if we're to take into account the current situation, you would greatly reduce the number of teams running around, which is a double-edged sword. Sure, you prevent the problem of people being able to cover multiple spots in a team battle, but you also then force rosters of sister teams back onto the original roster, or whatever is deemed the original roster, which will greatly bloat their size and make it really hard to set up team battles of reasonable size with ease. That might seem like a bit of an odd complaint, because leaders tend to interact and call the shots on what's happening, but certain teams lacking roster caps is another thing that could easily become as much of a problem as this vaguely claims to be.

I'm not against the idea of restricting double teaming, because I can see the argument of our community being a bit more tight-knit. I don't think people should be able to claim a position on 4-5 teams that are essentially sister teams of the same team; that's caused problems in actual sports and esports before, let alone our casual system. But because this community also has a hard time reaching out to other people (I saw an argument earlier asking why we didn't reach out to people on Map 1 of Area and I laughed, really hard), it's hard to get new blood interested in this community. People also overlook the fact that, myself included, this place gets into a lot of pointless drama. If people don't want to be a part of pointless drama, why would they bother coming over here and interacting to some degree? They just want to play the game.

Essentially, I think the real problem is that you want to freshen up how team battling feels as an experience and are assuming this is the problem that holds it back, when in reality we're rather clique-y and to abolish this entirely would possibly make things even worse. If anything, what you might consider doing is trying to be creative with how team battles go. If it's competitive every time, of course it's going to get boring. Go for fun fights.

berly you have been away for a long time from teams, but allot of the people are on the same teams, we even call some teams now sub teams because they literally have the same members just a different name and leader, from that point of view we are not losing anything other then a teams second name since those people will still be on the same team. right now we cant really say let the leaders solve the problems since you get one teams multi members which gets it in there favor. while the community themselves spoke. so far i see people like asaka who never even had an account and gone form most of area for years come on and vote because she was told vote. as for roster caps like most things we can control that but teams themselves even my members when we grow allot move on try to make there own teams or join others.

yes drama we know enough. but if allot of things change for some peoples favor cant they change for the ohers favor to especially when its a vote ?

and we try but most people have there mind set. multi team comes from those who cant keep there own teams up asking for help. it didnt used to be a big problem in the past since it was small and yes it got out of hand. but lets face it limits in one month like the rules for the drama chat will change or be completely erased. voting to limit it is almost the same as voting no since people will simple create rules to exploit or break and erase em. and those that now see that they are on the less favored side want to compromise because they are indeed fearing for there own gain. i believe that in time as i see so many people that dont even cardfight on area anymore come vote for limited it might pass yes because there is no set date for this .

but the immediate the people that are on here daily spoke and they said yes stop this yes it is a problem, and the people with multi teams agree multi and single have the same positives and if that is so then why is it a problem to remove multi and double when people agree double is more porblematic  and has more problems and negatives ?

i know with the majority of people in power the dont want to bring a change here they wont stop it they will just keep arguing like a superman vs goku argument even if you lay proof down infront of em because they wont want to be in the wrong or lose and if a change is brought it will be short because like many showed there not willing to work for it and rather go the easy root even if there own past and present proofed that it isnt working.

Mate, I was one of the first people to lose a team because I went ahead and double-teamed assuming it was fine because I watched others do it. Sirvat kicked me, and he had full right to do it, and I was fine with it because it was his choice. I then proceeded to watch that team combine with Team Asteroid's roster, along with a few other satellite teams that came up. "Sister" teams is the common terminology for this type of organization, which is why I went with it over "sub" teams. I'm fully aware of what's been going on; just because I don't post doesn't mean I don't shadow this community in a number of ways, including through friends that still interact with it to some degree.

I agree in the sentiment that people will eventually gain enough of a sense to make their own teams with people from that old team for the sake of having that team separate and being their own entity, but I haven't seen that as of late because teams keep sharing their members. It's kind of why I agree with the substitute proposal Angel made more than an outright ban, because it does let teams have fallbacks if people have other commitments, but it doesn't allow teams to straight up be subsidiaries of the same organization, because that's a load of bullshit.

It confounds me how this comes back to mods, in any shape or form. If you think, or even know, that what you guys want to do is abolish it, why does a moderator have to validate it? You can come to a silent agreement amongst leaders, or a certain group of leaders if not all agree, post the rule as a part of your team rules, and basically call it a day. Why'd we have to go through all these pages, back and forth, suddenly seeing shit like "oh well this is going to get blocked anyway when the community wants it but the mods dont." The results you have, even if they're not universally agreed on, are enough for you guys to act on your own.

[Jai Hearts]

condolance for your team i heard about some of it.

but angels proposal is basically multi team with extra steps allowing those people to still do what they are doing now and probably best you see droids post for his counter.

in the end angels solution is one extreamly flawed one.

we still need the mods help to do some things since they are they always state are the law on here and have the power to atleast back us up when a team is breaking the rules and inforce it or they get a consequence since not everyone will follow this. in the past we had no solid written rule about this but now its so big even sirvat decided to make a post on it.

another problem is most of the leaders are on one single team so one team can have 5 leaders vote for em while single team only has one thats pretty out of balance.

i would go for limitation rules but on here limitations seem to always disappears when it inconveniences someone who has the power to change it or someone close to change it.

in the end i already knew that the ones that can help and make this change possible are against it and wont help.

it would be so awesome if those themselves that are on mutliple teams just stop right now if they wanna double team then be on only two teams and hold to your convictions. if those leaders are your friends they will understand. if a team is big and another is smaller they will probably be a bit upset at first but it will work out.

and to the leaders i say try to be a bit different try to work for your team.

all in all im proud of this community stepping up and speaking there minds on this so there will be a time on its own multi teaming will mostly likely die out again. but for now this is what it is.

[ryujiknight]

I now find this debate pointless because i highly doubt it is encouraging people to vote for something else and its starting to have nothing to do with point of double teaming ._.

[Moe Shinkō]

Oh boy, the irony is so much in this thread that it's unreal; I'm not taking shots but since we're stating facts let me state some as well, Sirvat weren't you and Ate the one's who started all this 'sub' issue to begin with? You had your team on a no double team rule yet kept 'subbing' for TA even though everyone knew you are part of the team. Sometimes you 'subbed' as Sirvat or sometimes you played as NTA Birth, what exactly prevents others from not doing the same? I can be in multiple teams under different names, woop good job guys nothing really changed. Multi-teaming is ridiculous sure, more then 2 teams is just overboard, limit them to 2 I agree with that. "The issue of fight same players every TB." Stems up from multi-team and subs not Double Teaming. You won't fight the same members if the members are limited to 2 teams instead of being in 5 teams.

I used to be anti-double teaming, I always stuck with one team. TCC, AE, RS, NeoGen then Mu's. Even in Mu's I've joined uh, VS because of shockwave but I don't really do anything there since I can't understand crap there. I joined NR because it was heartwarming to see AE back in another form and I missed my friends so for the purpose of having fun and chatting. I couldn't care less if teams were limited to 1 since in terms of TB I only care about my main team anyway but that's looking at it from my point of view and that's a self-centered approach.

Why do people double team? Very simple, people have lives and teams aren't always active. Mu's is pretty active, we barely TB yet get 3k messages a day, but the thing is some people love to TB, suppose our team isn't in the mood to TB like we weren't at January/February month(s). If they have another team they can play with or satisfy their needs then they can be happy on both teams as opposed to: "Man this team doesn't vanguard much anymore other team like TA seems super active and they TB 10 times a day, I wanna join them so I guess I'll leave this team!" That's stupid. People double team because teams can't always be active and if they are, not every team can be. Yes, yes, Radiant Tales is the best and we should follow their example, strive to be like them etc. but people have lives and have things like: College, Work, etc and better things then a side hobby like online Vanguard who's team battles take an hour or even longer. Point is, not every team can be active so double team makes people happy to play at different time zones and what not.

By all means go ahead and ban subbing and more then 2 teams, Go for it. That's a good step, if you guys wanna ban 2 teams I couldn't care less but at the end of the day it's all just



Big words to look smart and no result, this is a debate that'll go on until people are bored and has 0 result from it. At the end of the day you can say 20 philosophical things to look deep or write 3 essay paragraphs like Devour to sound smart but it brings no result(which I ended up doing). Although my reason to write this big paragraph was so I can just post this or else Cherry will ban me

TL;DR

[Sirvat]

Im not really able to write a whole lot at the moment, but you are entirely confused if you think me and Ate started this no offence.  I agree to doing it but I don't agree with it now because of the different reasons stated above. At this point you all should be trying to come to agreement on ways in which we can change, ban,  or limit double teaming.   

[Sandy]

Wow this got popular.

Let's set aside for a second, the ability to run your team however you want to. And let's focus on a few things. Firstly, time zones, as much as I'd LOVE to have everyone on my team be able to be on the same exact time I am, some are from the UK, some are from different parts of the country and so I sadly can't expect them to be on all the time, so I could see why in that case they would want to join another team whose timeline matches up more with there's. Not to mention the fact that there are various circumstances and variables we can't really factor in due to some of those being of the personal nature. I am personally okay with it, as long as they are able to A) be active and B) assure me that if the problem ever came around where one of their 'other' teams were fighting with 'my' team, that they'd choose my team unless I had someone who was able to take their spot, given prior notice, etc.

To summarize, if their leader is okay with double teaming, then it's fine. If they aren't, they should put it in their rules and run their team in 'that' way.